Lip service or actual evangelisation?

[friardchips]

Hi, forum posters! I was thinking about the difference today between preaching the Gospel via speaking and/or preaching by action. Isn’t this the difference between real evangelisation, and proselytizing.

The reason I ask, is because I was thinking about the Order of Preachers, the Dominicans, and how they literally preach the Gospel - by speaking. Where do Orders such as these fit in with Catholic faith as we interpret it to be, in the world of today (and in Scripture, in fact)?

Do Dominicans also visit and tend to the sick, prisoners, the elderly, the homeless, the outcasts, the young? I know they converted a member of ISIS through tending to him after his fellow fighters abandoned him. So do they serve in other ways too or do they view preaching with words their only or most important charism?

Thank you.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi, forum posters! I was thinking about the difference today between preaching the Gospel via speaking and/or preaching by action. Isn’t this the difference between real evangelisation, and proselytizing.

The reason I ask, is because I was thinking about the Order of Preachers, the Dominicans, and how they literally preach the Gospel - by speaking. Where do Orders such as these fit in with Catholic faith as we interpret it to be, in the world of today (and in Scripture, in fact)?

Do Dominicans also visit and tend to the sick, prisoners, the elderly, the homeless, the outcasts, the young? I know they converted a member of ISIS through tending to him after his fellow fighters abandoned him. So do they serve in other ways too or do they view preaching with words their only or most important charism?

Thank you.

Interesting post. Since catholics never really taught evangelization and I go back a few years.

I think you’re getting mixed up with:

Always preach the gospel
And when absolutely necessary
Use words

St. Francis

It means that your life can be a form of evangelization; maybe the best one. But if no one knows you’re even christian, what good would it do?

So it is necessary to use words too. Proselytizing is when you try to convince someone to leave their church and go to yours. This is a decision that should be made freely. The word actually means to convince toward a religion, but I never hear it used like that anymore because, of course, we’d like everyone to be catholic, that’s what evangelizing is all about.

I think we catholics are pretty new to this and I think the new evangelization is very necessary. This is evangelization to our own. Yes. Because too many do not know their faith. Would you agree?

I don’t know about each order you mention. I do know that we need to speak about God and open up the conversation.

God bless

 

[animalis]

“as indeed appeareth from the next words of the Lord, where he saith: I will have mercy and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The Lord went to eat with sinners to the end that he might have occasion to teach, and to break spiritual bread unto them which bade him.” (St. Jerome, Liber 1 Comment. in Matth. cap. 9)

 

[friardchips]

“as indeed appeareth from the next words of the Lord, where he saith: I will have mercy and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The Lord went to eat with sinners to the end that he might have occasion to teach, and to break spiritual bread unto them which bade him.” (St. Jerome, Liber 1 Comment. in Matth. cap. 9)

So both then - speaking and doing. Specifically to do with Dominicans: is their Order and other preaching-focussed Orders, that relevant today?

 

[friardchips]

Interesting post. Since catholics never really taught evangelization and I go back a few years.

I think you’re getting mixed up with:

Always preach the gospel
And when absolutely necessary
Use words

St. Francis

It means that your life can be a form of evangelization; maybe the best one. But if no one knows you’re even christian, what good would it do?

This is the point. We live our lives and try at least to live with openness to grace as best as possible. And this can lead us into relationships, however short or long-lasting they may be, in which our Creator’s light can be shared between us, between people. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He brings the opportunities. From these lived experiences others might ask about our faith or a conversation might come up that the opportunity might come for us to jump into talking about it. Then we can proclaim our belief. But the two are entwined, seemingly. The actual life of helping others is very much the essence in the New Testament. We take Who is in us to others. Our Lord had the power and authority to preach but He combined this with active religion. He lived what he preached. He lived as Who He Is. Furthermore, sometimes we are simply called to help, without necessarily proclaiming Catholicism, I think. For example, I understand that the Creator is Love. So we can show love toward someone confident that having done this is an offered up prayerful act to Love Himself, and this love might well benefit the other, because every act of love will nudge a person one tiny step closer to the Heart of existence. One doesn’t always need to rigidly try and convert every human being as this is conversion of the heart and so is in our Creator’s hands. My point is, how relevant are preaching Orders today, without the living-the-faith aspect of Catholicism, and by that I mean, going out and literally serving the vulnerable?

So it is necessary to use words too. Proselytizing is when you try to convince someone to leave their church and go to yours. This is a decision that should be made freely. The word actually means to convince toward a religion, but I never hear it used like that anymore because, of course, we’d like everyone to be catholic, that’s what evangelizing is all about.

I thought ‘proselytizing’ could also mean trying to persuade another into believing one’s own set of beliefs not just to join one’s own church? Oh no. How many times I have used this word in the wrong context!

I think we catholics are pretty new to this and I think the new evangelization is very necessary. This is evangelization to our own. Yes. Because too many do not know their faith. Would you agree?

Yes, people could do with knowing more. Knowledge serves a purpose. Pope Francis, a while ago, said that learning the Catechism won’t bring about spiritual experiences. Yes, we can learn and teach theory, and this is important. But it is lived and loved experiences which convert, because theory is not the most rewarding experience as it takes place in the mind only, for the most part. That would not necessarily be a deep conversion. The conversion has to move into the heart area. Then it is faith growing and deepening. The difference between merely understanding and actually living the faith is everything. If we live the faith by preaching verbally and physically then people are going to take us more seriously because they will be able to see the conversion, the love, inside of us, reaching outward. As if we are transparent. The two most important commandments in which all the others find their places possibly point to this exact need!

I don’t know about each order you mention. I do know that we need to speak about God and open up the conversation.

God bless

The Dominican Order of Preachers preach the Gospel. So my thoughts to do with them, seeing as they are apparently a very healthy Order, is how do they also live the Gospel?! Surely they need to visibly live the Gospel as well in order to be able to preach. One fuels the other?

Thank you for your thoughtful dialogue!

 

[frangiuliano115]

This is the point. We live our lives and try at least to live with openness to grace as best as possible. And this can lead us into relationships, however short or long-lasting they may be, in which our Creator’s light can be shared between us, between people. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He brings the opportunities. From these lived experiences others might ask about our faith or a conversation might come up that the opportunity might come for us to jump into talking about it. Then we can proclaim our belief. But the two are entwined, seemingly. The actual life of helping others is very much the essence in the New Testament. We take Who is in us to others. Our Lord had the power and authority to preach but He combined this with active religion. He lived what he preached. He lived as Who He Is. Furthermore, sometimes we are simply called to help, without necessarily proclaiming Catholicism, I think. For example, I understand that the Creator is Love. So we can show love toward someone confident that having done this is an offered up prayerful act to Love Himself, and this love might well benefit the other, because every act of love will nudge a person one tiny step closer to the Heart of existence. One doesn’t always need to rigidly try and convert every human being as this is conversion of the heart and so is in our Creator’s hands. My point is, how relevant are preaching Orders today, without the living-the-faith aspect of Catholicism, and by that I mean, going out and literally serving the vulnerable?

Well Amen to all that! Couldn’t agree more. So, yes, I try to do the above. I taught catechism till last year so many know I’m christian; also have a small bible study. But even if not, I’d try to get God into my conversation somehow. In a non intrusive way, you know - you sound like an intelligent person. You always have to use wisdom. I also live in a small town so it’s easier. I just think it’s nice that people know why you try to be nice. A nun I know always says that going to Mass is a good testimony because it’s an obvious testimony.

I thought ‘proselytizing’ could also mean trying to persuade another into believing one’s own set of beliefs not just to join one’s own church? Oh no. How many times I have used this word in the wrong context!

You’re right again friardchips. Sorry. It could be used to mean to persuade for any belief, as you say. We were talking about religion and, really, I hear it used mostly when trying to get someone to go to your church; a different church than the one they currently attend. But it can be used as you’ve been using it. No problem!

Yes, people could do with knowing more. Knowledge serves a purpose. Pope Francis, a while ago, said that learning the Catechism won’t bring about spiritual experiences. Yes, we can learn and teach theory, and this is important. But it is lived and loved experiences which convert, because theory is not the most rewarding experience as it takes place in the mind only, for the most part. That would not necessarily be a deep conversion. The conversion has to move into the heart area. Then it is faith growing and deepening. The difference between merely understanding and actually living the faith is everything. If we live the faith by preaching verbally and physically then people are going to take us more seriously because they will be able to see the conversion, the love, inside of us, reaching outward. As if we are transparent. The two most important commandments in which all the others find their places possibly point to this exact need!

Here, let me say, that I know exactly what you mean. You sound very spiritual and this is what it’s all about. But I have to disagree a bit. Maybe because I come into contact with so much differing opinion and/or conceptions that it’s beginning to make me wonder if we catholics are as united as we’d like to think. You know how we say that protestantism has splintered into so many groups (churches)? Well, I’ve been thinking, lately, that this is true of we catholics too. Hate to bring this up. It’s been on my mind - sorry.

You hear such weird stuff. Even here on the CAF. Where do these ideas come from?? I do believe it’s because we are not properly catechized. This is a pet peeve of mine. So, yes, first there’s the conversion. Good. I’d say the bible and/or some life experience, or just plain reasoning, can bring to conversion. Then there should be teaching so that we could all know our faith and know what the catholic church teaches and all know what we should be believing.

You’ll always have some divurgence, but at least I won’t have to hear that the - sometimes heretical! - opinion is what the catholic church teaches.

Sorry. I know this is not what your thread is about. I just wish something would change - but I don’t see any change coming.

The Dominican Order of Preachers preach the Gospel. So my thoughts to do with them, seeing as they are apparently a very healthy Order, is how do they also live the Gospel?! Surely they need to visibly live the Gospel as well in order to be able to preach. One fuels the other?

Thank you for your thoughtful dialogue!

Sorry, no knowledge here. I can only say that regarding “one fuels the other” in the case of preaching it must be this way. If you smoke it’s still legitimate to tell a son not to smoke because you know the harm it can do. But with christianity it doesn’t work like that. If you want to preach it, you have to be living it or the preaching becomes invalid.

Will be following along.

Fran

 

[friardchips]

Well Amen to all that! Couldn’t agree more. So, yes, I try to do the above. I taught catechism till last year so many know I’m christian; also have a small bible study. But even if not, I’d try to get God into my conversation somehow. In a non intrusive way, you know - you sound like an intelligent person. You always have to use wisdom. I also live in a small town so it’s easier. I just think it’s nice that people know why you try to be nice. A nun I know always says that going to Mass is a good testimony because it’s an obvious testimony.

Here, let me say, that I know exactly what you mean. You sound very spiritual and this is what it’s all about. But I have to disagree a bit. Maybe because I come into contact with so much differing opinion and/or conceptions that it’s beginning to make me wonder if we catholics are as united as we’d like to think. You know how we say that protestantism has splintered into so many groups (churches)? Well, I’ve been thinking, lately, that this is true of we catholics too. Hate to bring this up. It’s been on my mind - sorry.

You hear such weird stuff. Even here on the CAF. Where do these ideas come from?? I do believe it’s because we are not properly catechized. This is a pet peeve of mine. So, yes, first there’s the conversion. Good. I’d say the bible and/or some life experience, or just plain reasoning, can bring to conversion. Then there should be teaching so that we could all know our faith and know what the catholic church teaches and all know what we should be believing.

You’ll always have some divurgence, but at least I won’t have to hear that the - sometimes heretical! - opinion is what the catholic church teaches.

Sorry. I know this is not what your thread is about. I just wish something would change - but I don’t see any change coming.

Sorry, no knowledge here. I can only say that regarding “one fuels the other” in the case of preaching it must be this way. If you smoke it’s still legitimate to tell a son not to smoke because you know the harm it can do. But with christianity it doesn’t work like that. If you want to preach it, you have to be living it or the preaching becomes invalid.

Will be following along.

Fran

I believe that conversion is ongoing, it doesn’t stop with the initial discovery, it continues, and I think that this happens through experience - inward and outward; however, I do also think the brain can be starved of understanding, along the journey of living one’s religion, which can then cause further issues. As you say, on here, there are a lot of the time some of the strangest ideas, and yet on here, I do get the impression that people are genuinely trying to find their way. If people were properly catechized then some serious issues might not manifest. There is a tendency amongst Christians to look down on the Catechism, and I have experienced this from so-called learned people too, who begin to elevate their own opinions above those of the Magisterium, as if Divine Truth relies on personal opinion to be true, and there is also a tendency to misinterpret the information.

The Catechism does not expound as much as it could in certain areas, maybe out of prudence, yet I feel it could be expanded on with a little more confidence, in such areas, because to hold back out of fear is not really going to help. Gentleness comes in our approach with others. Evangelisation could be achieved effectively if done with a boldness of faith. If the RCC is confident in her belief then other people will believe us. If we are timid and holding back then who is benefitting? If such confidence is not expressed then Catholics will enter into religious-relativist thinking, or the other extreme - robotic computing of the faith. The Catechism is a rock-type step. Then/and people need to know why the CCC is correct. Why it is not just opinion but information made up of Divine “wisdom”. But to understand what is in one’s head, one needs to also live the truths. Otherwise, when we proclaim our faith, the listener will sense we are holding back because our whole being is not sharing. We are in agreement over this: “If you want to preach it, you have to be living it or the preaching becomes invalid.” Faith has to be active. Even knowledge cannot stay static. It is eternally ongoing…

For an example, take the Holy Mother. She would have had knowledge of her religion to begin with. She then lived her faith. And she pondered upon her experiences, relating back to her knowledge, in wisdom, in Christological Light, that the correct meanings could be excavated from her experiences.

 

[animalis]

“In any case, to evangelize does not mean simply to teach a doctrine, but to proclaim Jesus Christ by one’s words and actions, that is, to make oneself an instrument of his presence and action in the world.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal note on some aspects of evangelization, 2)

St. Jerome is still relevant today. Benedict XV made this clear by proclaiming him as the "greatest doctor " of the Church. The above citation points to your answer as indeed a complex one.

I suggest opening yourself in dialogue with the poor, ie a homeless shelter. By this practical approach you bring the complex into perceptual coherence. As it says in the Psalms, a good understanding to all that do it. (Ps 110:10 vulgate)

 

[frangiuliano115]

I believe that conversion is ongoing, it doesn’t stop with the initial discovery, it continues, and I think that this happens through experience - inward and outward; however, I do also think the brain can be starved of understanding, along the journey of living one’s religion, which can then cause further issues. As you say, on here, there are a lot of the time some of the strangest ideas, and yet on here, I do get the impression that people are genuinely trying to find their way. If people were properly catechized then some serious issues might not manifest. There is a tendency amongst Christians to look down on the Catechism, and I have experienced this from so-called learned people too, who begin to elevate their own opinions above those of the Magisterium, as if Divine Truth relies on personal opinion to be true, and there is also a tendency to misinterpret the information.

The Catechism does not expound as much as it could in certain areas, maybe out of prudence, yet I feel it could be expanded on with a little more confidence, in such areas, because to hold back out of fear is not really going to help. Gentleness comes in our approach with others. Evangelisation could be achieved effectively if done with a boldness of faith. If the RCC is confident in her belief then other people will believe us. If we are timid and holding back then who is benefitting? If such confidence is not expressed then Catholics will enter into religious-relativist thinking, or the other extreme - robotic computing of the faith. The Catechism is a rock-type step. Then/and people need to know why the CCC is correct. Why it is not just opinion but information made up of Divine “wisdom”. But to understand what is in one’s head, one needs to also live the truths. Otherwise, when we proclaim our faith, the listener will sense we are holding back because our whole being is not sharing. We are in agreement over this: “If you want to preach it, you have to be living it or the preaching becomes invalid.” Faith has to be active. Even knowledge cannot stay static. It is eternally ongoing…

For an example, take the Holy Mother. She would have had knowledge of her religion to begin with. She then lived her faith. And she pondered upon her experiences, relating back to her knowledge, in wisdom, in Christological Light, that the correct meanings could be excavated from her experiences.

Hi Friardchips,
Nice to meet someone you could agree with on so many fronts!

The only thing I can say is that I do have a problem with the CCC. I use it for teaching. This is the problem: You let two people read the same pp’s and they’ll come up with two different answers. I might have already said this.

So we have people here on this forum who give an opinion and say it’s church teaching. It makes me a litle crazy!

But, thank God, there are so many intelligent people around here who know so much and can contribute to our knowledge.

And let’s remember that in the end it’s all about Jesus and following Him!
God bless you
Fran

 

[friardchips]

Hi Friardchips,
Nice to meet someone you could agree with on so many fronts!

Yes, nice to meet you, and to be able to agree is a bonus!

The only thing I can say is that I do have a problem with the CCC. I use it for teaching. This is the problem: You let two people read the same pp’s and they’ll come up with two different answers. I might have already said this.

Discussion is good. Conversation is good. You said this and I agree. St. Augustine said that when reasoning with people over matters of faith we have t remember that just because one of us might know the truth to a greater degree, we must be patient and to consider the other’s view, because they might also, in their opinion, be speaking truth too, but not to such a full extent. Or even know something we have not considered. And the Holy Spirit is going to be there in both. We are all at differing levels. Much of the Catechism contains mystical understanding and many saints have pointed out the futile process of attempting to explain in fullness many Divine truths. Maybe the way forward is not so much to give exacting answers but giving questions from which the 'student (?) can take away and live and find out for themselves. The main things in the Catechism, the tenets, are not hard to remember, but some other details are maybe needing prayer and (name removed by moderator)ut from other resources. When people say they are stating the Catechism but not doing due to misinterpretation or whatever reason then I’d give a book or prayer suggestion and leave it in the Creator’s hands. Most important, IMO, is how we get to the end point. The end doesn’t justify the means. Learning can be a pilgrimage of faith in itself. Teaching is such a worthy vocation. How is the faith shared? How is the bread broken? Is there emotion there during discussion? How much fervour is being drummed up? Is it better that people leave with all the answers or with many more questions?

So we have people here on this forum who give an opinion and say it’s church teaching. It makes me a litle crazy!

But, thank God, there are so many intelligent people around here who know so much and can contribute to our knowledge.

There are many. Thanks to our Creator’s abundant generosity.

And let’s remember that in the end it’s all about Jesus and following Him!
God bless you
Fran

Ave Maria, to that!

Thank you for your responses.

 

[friardchips]

“In any case, to evangelize does not mean simply to teach a doctrine, but to proclaim Jesus Christ by one’s words and actions, that is, to make oneself an instrument of his presence and action in the world.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal note on some aspects of evangelization, 2)

St. Jerome is still relevant today. Benedict XV made this clear by proclaiming him as the "greatest doctor " of the Church. The above citation points to your answer as indeed a complex one.

I suggest opening yourself in dialogue with the poor, ie a homeless shelter. By this practical approach you bring the complex into perceptual coherence. As it says in the Psalms, a good understanding to all that do it. (Ps 110:10 vulgate)

An excellent suggestion. An inspired one, no doubt! I would feel confident in leading whatever life for the Church as long as I was also doing some kind of active service for the less fortunate. As you and others have said, living and learning/teaching the faith cannot be treated as separate ideals. The two are, in a sense, one, for peace to a part of one’s life.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, nice to meet you, and to be able to agree is a bonus!

Discussion is good. Conversation is good. You said this and I agree. St. Augustine said that when reasoning with people over matters of faith we have t remember that just because one of us might know the truth to a greater degree, we must be patient and to consider the other’s view, because they might also, in their opinion, be speaking truth too, but not to such a full extent. Or even know something we have not considered. And the Holy Spirit is going to be there in both. We are all at differing levels. Much of the Catechism contains mystical understanding and many saints have pointed out the futile process of attempting to explain in fullness many Divine truths. Maybe the way forward is not so much to give exacting answers but giving questions from which the 'student (?) can take away and live and find out for themselves. The main things in the Catechism, the tenets, are not hard to remember, but some other details are maybe needing prayer and (name removed by moderator)ut from other resources. When people say they are stating the Catechism but not doing due to misinterpretation or whatever reason then I’d give a book or prayer suggestion and leave it in the Creator’s hands. Most important, IMO, is how we get to the end point. The end doesn’t justify the means. Learning can be a pilgrimage of faith in itself. Teaching is such a worthy vocation. How is the faith shared? How is the bread broken? Is there emotion there during discussion? How much fervour is being drummed up? Is it better that people leave with all the answers or with many more questions?

There are many. Thanks to our Creator’s abundant generosity.

Ave Maria, to that!

Thank you for your responses.

You know, the church is in dire need of catechists. After all, teaching catechism is not the same as teaching religion - as I often used to remind my kids (till last year).

And you seem to know all the qualifications. Come on, Friardchips, we could use you!

Your words are very uplifting and we could always use more of those…

Hope to be seeing you around.

Fran

 

[friardchips]

You know, the church is in dire need of catechists. After all, teaching catechism is not the same as teaching religion - as I often used to remind my kids (till last year).

And you seem to know all the qualifications. Come on, Friardchips, we could use you!

Your words are very uplifting and we could always use more of those…

Hope to be seeing you around.

Fran

Thanks, Fran! I’m sure you’re all doing great already! I appreciate the nudge in a good direction. Maybe you could connect with the New Evangelization mission of the Church, if you haven’t done already. If I ever go into such things you’ll be able to spot me - I’ll be long, thin, yellow and crispy and very obviously prone to severe temperature changes.

F.C.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

This amazing thread is doing me no end of good. These are things I have witnessed much sad conflict about.

 

[frangiuliano115]

This amazing thread is doing me no end of good. These are things I have witnessed much sad conflict about.

I could be so dense sometimes.
Which things have you witnessed much sad conflict about???

Fran

 

[friardchips]

This amazing thread is doing me no end of good. These are things I have witnessed much sad conflict about.

Do you mean the inner conflict one might feel regarding whether one is living an authentic Christian life or not? Or are you referring to conflict that you have maybe perceived around you? Thanks for the post.