Little help Papacy

[thessalonian]

Hi,

I’ve been debating this anti-catholic radio guy. I have gone through the scriptural arguments and he just says nah nah boo boo. Then quotes a bunch of Dave Hunt. I am researching but though some of you might give me some help as well. I am looking more for patristic evidence. Please give me some quotes from Fathers that refute the nonsense below.

Gerald

What would you say to this statement. “None of the early church fathers every thought that thou art Peter and Upon this rock had any thing to do anything other than Peter and his confession of faith in Christ.” “not one of them calls the Bishop of Rome a rock or applies to him the promise of the keys.”.
All the councils of the Church from Nicea in the 4th century to Constance in the 15th agree that Christ himself is the only foundation of the Church. That is the rock on which the Church rests.
“not one of the fathers speaks of a transference of power from Peter to those who succeed him. There is no hint of an abiding petrine office. So the early Church did not look on Peter as the Bishop of Rome. Nor did it think that each bishop of rome succeeded Peter. The Gospel did not create the Papacy. The papacy once in being leaned on the gospels. Though it was not there.”

 

[bmullins]

Here is a start:

ORIGEN:

“Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, left only one epistle of acknowledged genuinity. Let us concede also a second, which however is doubtful.” (Commentaries on John 5,3)

“Look upon the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church! And what does the Lord say to him? ‘O you of little faith,’ He says, ‘why did you doubt!’” (Homilies on Exodus 5,4)

AMBROSE:

“We recognize in the letter of your holiness the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and you with pious solicitude you guard Christ’s sheepfold (Jn 10:7ff.), you are wirthy to have the Lord’s sheep hear follow you. Since you know the sheep of Christ you will easily catch the wolves and confront them like a wary shepherd, lest they disperse the Lord’s flock by their constant lack of faith and their bestial howling.” (Synodal Letter of Ambrose, Sabinus, Bassian, and Others to Pope Siricius 42,1).

"It is Peter himself that He says, “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal.” (Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms 40,30)

“Christ is the Rock, ‘For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ,’ and He did not refuse to bestow the favour of this title even upon His disciple, so that he, too, might be Peter [or, Rock], in that he has from the Rock a solid constancy, a firm faith.” (Expos. in Luc.)

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM

“For what purpose did He shed His blood? It was that He might win these sheep which he entrusted to Peter and his successors.” (De Sacerdotio, 53)

“Peter himself the chief of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received a revelation not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, ‘Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and bone hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven’; this very Peter, - and when I name Peter, the great Apostles, I name that unbroken rock, that firm foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called and the first who obeyed.” (Homily 3 de Poenit. 4)

THEODORET OF CYR

“This most holy See has preserved the supremacy over all Churches on the earth, for one especial reason among many others; to wit, that it has remained intact from the defilement of heresy. No one has ever sat on that Chair, who has taught heretical doctrine; rather that See has ever preserved unstained the Apostolic grace.” (Epistle 116 to Renatus).

HILARY OF POTIERS

“Blessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” (On the Trinity, 20, NPNF2, 9:105)

EPIPHANIUS

"At Rome. the first Apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul; then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul, whom Paul remembers in his Epistle to the Romans … The succession of the bishops of Rome is as follows: Peter and Paul, Linus and Cletus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telephorus, Hyginus, Pius, Anicetus, whom I have already mentioned above in my enumerating of the bishops. (The Panacea against All Heresies 27,6)

AUGUSTINE

“[In] the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should… With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.” (Against the Epistle of Manichaeus [Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti.)

See Peter the Rock - A discussion on the views of the early Church Fathers for much more information.
[/quote]

 

[Barbkw]

I’ve learned from listening to the EWTN program “The Journey Home” that publishers of books on the Early Church for protestant denominations will “pick and choose” what they want to have published.

They will intentionally pull out Catholic references to make the Early Church fathers appear protestant.

 

[Jacob50]

Hi,

I’ve been debating this anti-catholic radio guy. I have gone through the scriptural arguments and he just says nah nah boo boo. Then quotes a bunch of Dave Hunt. I am researching but though some of you might give me some help as well. I am looking more for patristic evidence. Please give me some quotes from Fathers that refute the nonsense below.

Gerald

What would you say to this statement. “None of the early church fathers every thought that thou art Peter and Upon this rock had any thing to do anything other than Peter and his confession of faith in Christ.” “not one of them calls the Bishop of Rome a rock or applies to him the promise of the keys.”.
All the councils of the Church from Nicea in the 4th century to Constance in the 15th agree that Christ himself is the only foundation of the Church. That is the rock on which the Church rests.
“not one of the fathers speaks of a transference of power from Peter to those who succeed him. There is no hint of an abiding petrine office. So the early Church did not look on Peter as the Bishop of Rome. Nor did it think that each bishop of rome succeeded Peter. The Gospel did not create the Papacy. The papacy once in being leaned on the gospels. Though it was not there.”

Ive seen hundreds of patristic quotes that support the Catholic position on papacy. I however only compiled 200 of them and you can look at them here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8776225

By reading these you should be convinced about Peter being the Rock, and him being the first Pope.

 

[Jacob50]

Hi,

I’ve been debating this anti-catholic radio guy. I have gone through the scriptural arguments and he just says nah nah boo boo. Then quotes a bunch of Dave Hunt. I am researching but though some of you might give me some help as well. I am looking more for patristic evidence. Please give me some quotes from Fathers that refute the nonsense below.

Gerald

What would you say to this statement. “None of the early church fathers every thought that thou art Peter and Upon this rock had any thing to do anything other than Peter and his confession of faith in Christ.” “not one of them calls the Bishop of Rome a rock or applies to him the promise of the keys.”.
All the councils of the Church from Nicea in the 4th century to Constance in the 15th agree that Christ himself is the only foundation of the Church. That is the rock on which the Church rests.
“not one of the fathers speaks of a transference of power from Peter to those who succeed him. There is no hint of an abiding petrine office. So the early Church did not look on Peter as the Bishop of Rome. Nor did it think that each bishop of rome succeeded Peter. The Gospel did not create the Papacy. The papacy once in being leaned on the gospels. Though it was not there.”

Also I must mention that Peter’s confession is also the rock. But you cannot separate the confession from the “confessor” entirely, because we see in scripture that many times others confessed Christ as the Messiah or Son of God yet Christ never said he would build his church on any of them. Even all the Apostles proclaimed Jesus to be the Son of God in Matthew 14, yet he didn’t say “On all of you I will build my Church”, he saved that for Peter. I Made a topic about it:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8370028

Catechism:

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Christ, the “living Stone”, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.” This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

That has been discussed here on CAF in the following links:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579151
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=587192

 

[DavidFilmer]

What would you say to this statement.

I would say the guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, and he has never made any sort of serious study of the Early Church Fathers or the Councils of the Church. His claims are laughable.

I’m sure he can usually get away with such nonsense - most laypeople also have no idea what the ECFs wrote, and I’ve never encountered a protestant who could tell me anything about them. But he can’t get away with it here (as others have already demonstrated).

 

[thessalonian]

Great quotes. Thanks a bunch. This guy is a real clown. But I’ll be nice. Typical former Catholic anti-catholic who knows it all. The good thing about it is he keeps pointing his listeners out to his website where I am posting.

If anyone wants to get involved here is the website.
noiseofthunder.com/

I have been posting under articles:

noiseofthunder.com/articles/2012/1/2/protestants-arent-proper-christians-says-pope-benedict-xvi.html

I see he has a new article on
**UPON THIS ROCK, I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH **

That I will likely start posting with your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Also if any of you have time go here and listen to the programs on the 19th and 18th where he spent much of his time talking about my comments.

noiseofthunder.com/noise-of-thunder-radio-show/

Do join in.

Thanks

 

[steve_b]

Hi,

What would you say to this statement. “None of the early church fathers every thought that thou art Peter and Upon this rock had any thing to do anything other than Peter and his confession of faith in Christ.” “not one of them calls the Bishop of Rome a rock or applies to him the promise of the keys.”.

What he is really denying is that the apostles held offices, and their office will continue. Just as Judas office was replaced by Mattias, Acts 1: 15-26, so also was Peter’s office was succeeded by Linus, Clement, etc etc down to Benedict XVI.
t:

All the councils of the Church from Nicea in the 4th century to Constance in the 15th agree that Christ himself is the only foundation of the Church. That is the rock on which the Church rests.

The Rock renames Simon to Rock. And the Rock promises to build His Church on the one He renames Rock, with the other apostles. I’ll take that to the bank. Your opponant is already in trouble
t:

“not one of the fathers speaks of a transference of power from Peter to those who succeed him.

Peter already took care of that issue. Acts 1:15-26. The apostles had offices. When they died another would take their place.
t:

There is no hint of an abiding petrine office. So the early Church did not look on Peter as the Bishop of Rome. Nor did it think that each bishop of rome succeeded Peter. The Gospel did not create the Papacy. The papacy once in being leaned on the gospels. Though it was not there.”

Clement was the 3rd successor to Peter in Rome.

Clement wrote: “Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80

Clement is writing during apostolic times. St John is still alive and living either on Patmos or in Ephesus. Also, John in the year 80 hasn’t written the book of revelation yet.

ergo strife is over authority at all levels. But for 2000 years, the papacy has been here by the promise of Jesus… And the papacy is vibrant and alive. And the Church is one under the pope.
Benedict XVI is the 266th successor to Peter.

Irenaeus, was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St John. Irenaeus writes

Bk 3 ch 3, vs 2-4 “Against Heresies”
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, (pre-eminent authority where? ) inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

1. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes

• is Irenaeus saying EVERY Church is to agree with Smyrna? No. Antioch? No. Alexandria? No. Jerusalem? No. Who? Every Church EVERYWHERE is to agree with the bishop of Rome. And he even names names in line of succession, so no one misses his point, correct? He names Linus, Anacletus, Clement…
• Irenaeus says the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. Ergo those who don’t follow this tradition, are unfaithful because they don’t preserve apostolic tradition,
• Is this a modern interpretation of the papacy? Irenaeus hardly qualifies as “modern”.
• Who taught Irenaeus what he taught here? He says it came directly from the apostles through faithful men who preserved the apostolic tradition FAITHFULLY

Irenaeus

• refutes opponants who argue the papacy is a later invention.
• refutes the notion that every Church EVERYWHERE agreeing with the bishop of Rome is a novelty of later invention.

 

[thessalonian]

Here is where the discussion is going on. Tell me what I could do better. Join in if you like.

noiseofthunder.com/noise-of-thunder-radio-show/2012/1/19/notradio_11912.html#comments

 

[EricFilmer]

It never ceases to amaze me to see someone reject the authority of the Magisterium but then act as if their own personal interpretation of Scripture is God’s own, to which all Christians should adhere to.

Chris Pinto ought to go ahead and get his own papal tiara, declare himself infallible, and be done with it.

Of course, only cult leaders actually do this sort of self-aggrandizing. Others simply say things like, “No one on earth is infallible; Scripture, not people, is the final authority! But it just so happens that my interpretation of the Bible is correct, and any contrary interpretation is wrong!”

 

[drw72]

I went to the homepage of his website and in the first paragraph is this:

" Our exciting new show will be striking controversial topics like the religion of the Founding Fathers, the hidden agenda of occult and secret societies like the Illuminati and the Freemasons, the deception and apostasy in the church, and the secret plot of the Jesuit Order (Society of Jesus)."

And in his bio:

"His documentaries have given him a unique opportunity to travel the world and interview some of the leading experts on prophecy, the occult, and the working of secret societies.

He is perhaps best known for his three part documentary series, Secret Mysteries of America’s Beginnings…"

…hidden agenda of secret societies, Illuminati, Freemasons, secret plot of the Jesuits…sounds to me like he is more about conspiracy theory than theology. :hypno: