Liturgical Dance-when is it ok?

[Dauphin]

Speaking of the abuse of liturgical dance, get a load of this:

youtube.com/watch?v=peVv0SxoD2k

(If you have a weak stomach, don’t click)

We deserve so many punishments for what’s been permitted in the Church, for the morass of sin and blasphemy that’s erupted everywhere. God’s mercy is incomprehensible - how he can refrain from crushing us right now is impossible to understand.

 

[rpp]

Speaking of the abuse of liturgical dance, get a load of this:

youtube.com/watch?v=peVv0SxoD2k

(If you have a weak stomach, don’t click)

We deserve so many punishments for what’s been permitted in the Church, for the morass of sin and blasphemy that’s erupted everywhere. God’s mercy is incomprehensible - how he can refrain from crushing us right now is impossible to understand.

I only watch about 15 or 20 seconds.

Shameful. Despite what (only) one person has said here, what is going on is not worship, it is entertainment.

Do you really think the dancers are focused on prayer or the Sacrifice of the Cross? No, they are focused on the choreography.

How about those who are watching, are their thoughts brought closer to God with this frolic? No, they are looking at the costumes, noticing the style, admiring their daughter or trying to get a peek up the skirts each time girls throw them up high.

Mass is not a form of entertainment!

 

[drafdog]

What you need to do is to pick up your bible and go to the book of psalms. Go the the last psalm, number 150. Read it slowly and carefully. Read it again. Slowly and carefully. Yes, that’s exactly what it says: “Praise him with timbrel and dance.” The timbrel is a small hand drum or tambourine. Yes, it says to praise God with dancing!
Now talk to the teacher and see to it that she gets a trumpeter, a guitarist (too hard to find a lutenist), a harpist, some string players and a bagpiper. You will also need a percussionist to handle drum and cymbals. That is the ensemble as envisioned by the psalmist. Next you need dancers who will follow the example of David the king who danced the Ark of the Covenant into Jerusalem in joy and thanksgiving. They should show great enthusiasm.
And don’t listen to any of these naysayers who think that dance is in some fashion demonic. The scripture does not only approve, but enjoins us to dance in praise of the Most High.

Matthew

 

[BennyBoy89]

**Liturgical **dance is liturgical abuse.
Somebody on this board has a great signature line that reads:
"They will be plenty of time for liturgical dance in Purgatory"

If I was the Pope, I’d write an entire encyclical based on that quote.

 

[Dauphin]

What you need to do is to pick up your bible and go to the book of psalms. Go the the last psalm, number 150. Read it slowly and carefully. Read it again. Slowly and carefully. Yes, that’s exactly what it says: “Praise him with timbrel and dance.” The timbrel is a small hand drum or tambourine. Yes, it says to praise God with dancing!
Now talk to the teacher and see to it that she gets a trumpeter, a guitarist (too hard to find a lutenist), a harpist, some string players and a bagpiper. You will also need a percussionist to handle drum and cymbals. That is the ensemble as envisioned by the psalmist. Next you need dancers who will follow the example of David the king who danced the Ark of the Covenant into Jerusalem in joy and thanksgiving. They should show great enthusiasm.
And don’t listen to any of these naysayers who think that dance is in some fashion demonic. The scripture does not only approve, but enjoins us to dance in praise of the Most High.

Matthew

NOT. DURING. THE. MASS.

The Mass is the Sacrifice of Christ. It’s deserving of dignified reverence and awe, not of the self-centred nonsense that inevitably results when you try to introduce dance numbers.

If you want to go into the parish hall and do this after Mass, fine. It’s absurd, though, to take the exhortation offered in a psalm as an instruction on behavior during Mass. You can praise God in dance, but during the Mass it’s utterly innappropriate. There is a cetain type of silent and reverential worship during Mass, and dance generally doesn’t fit.

There are a few exceptions for processions, but only in cultures in which such behavior is appropriate. When it’s done in North America, it *always *degenerates into the sort of mockery of Christ’s sacrifice that we saw in that clip.

 

[drafdog]

So, it is agreed that the scripture exhorts us to dance in praise of God. So far, so good. All we have to do now is get the bureaucrats to stop shouting “no” every time someone says the word “dance” as though this were an obscenity or a blasphemy.
As long as the church won’t tell us when or where (they have so far only been able to give a prohibition with regard the Mass), we must go by what they haven’t forbidden. Thus it can be argued that dance may be part of the processional or recessional (before the opening sign of the cross and after the Ite Missa Est). It may similarly argued that liturgical dance may be a proper part of a wedding ceremony. There are other times and places where one might put it, but I offer these two cases as an example.
The response that liturgical dance is never appropriate is naive and anti-biblical.

Matthew

 

[Dauphin]

So, it is agreed that the scripture exhorts us to dance in praise of God. So far, so good. All we have to do now is get the bureaucrats to stop shouting “no” every time someone says the word “dance” as though this were an obscenity or a blasphemy.
As long as the church won’t tell us when or where (they have so far only been able to give a prohibition with regard the Mass), we must go by what they haven’t forbidden. Thus it can be argued that dance may be part of the processional or recessional (before the opening sign of the cross and after the Ite Missa Est). It may similarly argued that liturgical dance may be a proper part of a wedding ceremony. There are other times and places where one might put it, but I offer these two cases as an example.
The response that liturgical dance is never appropriate is naive and anti-biblical.

Matthew

Where does the Bible say that dance should take place during the liturgies of the Catholic Church? It only gives us a generic approval of dancing to praise God. This cannot be taken as appropriate behavior during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Were people dancing during the Old Testament sacrifices?

Processional dancing is only appropriate where the Church explicitly offers permission. People aren’t randomly allowed to introduce these usually distracting and self-serving innovations without consulting a higher authority.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, if you read Leviticus, you will find that dancing was never part of the cultic worship established personally by Yahweh (as dictated to Moses). In fact, the Lord spent several pages in Exodus, a good chunk of Leviticus and several chapters in both Numbers and Deuteronomy dictating the manner, form and method by which He would be worshipped.

Those who would use the psalms are merely trying to fit a big square peg into a round hole.

Unfortunately, there has been a very dangerous trend when it comes to certain Catholic schools “teaching” their students about “liturgical dance.” I have personally had to deal with this matter. It was finally squelched this year, thanks, in no small part, to Cardinal Arinze’s statements.

By the way, you will find the link to what was posted earlier by clicking on to: adoremus.org/Dance.html

Embedded within this article is the actual link to where the Q and A session that I have often quoted is found (Cardinal Resonds to Questions on the Liturgy).

What the psalmist is describing is non-liturgical prayer, and not anything that is associated with the norms and rubrics for sacrificial worship dictated by God, Himself. Furthermore, when liturgical abuses happened, these were dealt very swiftly. For example, when Aaron’s sons lit a fire when they weren’t supposed to do it, God literally burnt them to ashes. In another occasion, two priests, one of them being Dathan, lit incense against God’s command, and the Lord opened up the earth and swallowed not only the priests, but, their wives, children and all of their possessions. In other words, ancient Israel had to take its cultic worship very seriously.

All liturgy is prayer, but, not all prayer is liturgical. There is certainly no precedent for having dance during the Liturgy of the Hours, for example.

Now, the only time that “dance” processions are allowed, at least in my neck of the woods (or, and puzzleannie can attest to this, mesquite brush), is when the Matachines come and perform an ancient Aztec ceremonial dance associated with the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. However, this dance is never done during the Mass. In fact, when the image of OLG is carried in procession throughout the streets, the Matachines precede her. But, their dancing stops when they reach the door of the Church.

 

[elvisman]

Please produce a Church document that prohibits dance in all liturgies at all times…

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWDANCE.HTM

This is taken directly from your link:
******The dance has never ******been made an integral part of the official worhship of the Latin Church.
If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services.

If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

We can recall how much was derived from the presence of the Samoans at Rome for the missionary festival of 1971. At the end of the Mass, they carried out their dance in St. Peter’s square: and all were joyful.

It also states that dancing can be a part of WORSHIP and PRAISE - NOT MASS. 'Nuff said.

Just out of curiosity, SPILLER - are you Catholic?

 

[Spiller]

Where did I encourage falsehood? I simply recommended teaching what the practice is in our culture, and not going out of the way to examine what is permitted in other rites or other authorized forms of the Roman Rite.

Just what is “our culture” in the USA? The USA is a huge palette of “cultures.” Are you going to foist the constraints of what you feel is correct much like Latin Rite bishops in this country did to Eastern Catholics in decades past? Just tell the truth – that dance is legitimately part of the Mass not only in different parts of the world but also in different parishes in the USA. Don’t tell the kids a redacted version of what the Church actually instructs.

In a Mass celebrated at a normal American parish, liturgical dance is NEVER permitted. It is not approved for random introduction into the liturgy.

Just what is a “normal American parish”?!?!?!? The USA is a nation of immigrants. People from all cultures flock to this country. I fairly certain dance as described by Cardinal Arinze would be quite acceptable in some parishes in the continental USA. I’m absolutely certain that dance would be acceptable in some parishes in the Hawaiian Islands.

 

[Spiller]

This is taken directly from your link:
******The dance has never ******been made an integral part of the official worhship of the Latin Church.
If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services.

If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

We can recall how much was derived from the presence of the Samoans at Rome for the missionary festival of 1971. At the end of the Mass, they carried out their dance in St. Peter’s square: and all were joyful.

It also states that dancing can be a part of WORSHIP and PRAISE - NOT MASS. 'Nuff said.

Just out of curiosity, SPILLER - are you Catholic?

Sorry, but I’m not even going to attempt to read your comments this time. Lose the colors.

 

[Dauphin]

Just what is “our culture” in the USA? The USA is a huge palette of “cultures.” Are you going to foist the constraints of what you feel is correct much like Latin Rite bishops in this country did to Eastern Catholics in decades past? Just tell the truth – that dance is legitimately part of the Mass not only in different parts of the world but also in different parishes in the USA. Don’t tell the kids a redacted version of what the Church actually instructs.

I would foist whatever constraints are necessary to maintain dignity during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Eastern liturgies are dignified. The junk that’s usually introduced under the guise of “multiculturalism” is not and should be snuffed out.

The kids don’t need to know about rare cultural exceptions. This is exactly the way liturgical terrorists get at future generations in order to sew the seeds of abuse.

Just what is a “normal American parish”?!?!?!? The USA is a nation of immigrants. People from all cultures flock to this country. I fairly certain dance as described by Cardinal Arinze would be quite acceptable in some parishes in the continental USA. I’m absolutely certain that dance would be acceptable in some parishes in the Hawaiian Islands.

I’m quite certain that the rhythmic processions described by the Cardinal would almost never be permitted anywhere on this continent, and if they are permitted, there is almost no chance that a typical Latin Rite Catholic would be attending one.

Discussing these rare exceptions as if they’re relevant is just ridiculous. It’s just another method of trying to warp the liturgy into worship of the community.

The rhythmic processions which are permitted are so dramatically different than what people call “liturgical dance”, it’s not even funny. You’d have our children’s brains turned to mush with all sorts of vague exceptions for cultural expressions. The only allowances are those explicitly offered by the Vatican. Everything else is an abuse - a “display” of the community.

 

[japhy]

That document on EWTN.com that was linked to has this at the end of it:
FROM THESE DIRECTIVES, from the NATIONAL CONFERENCE of CATHOLIC BISHOPS, all dancing, (ballet, children’s gesture as dancing, the clown liturgy) are not permitted to be “introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever.” [NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS (BISHOPS’ COMMITTEE on the LITURGY) NEWSLETTER. APRIL/MAY 1982.]
So the US Bishops said “NO” 26 years ago. I don’t recall them changing their minds.

 

[Jennifer_J]

That document on EWTN.com that was linked to has this at the end of it:
FROM THESE DIRECTIVES, from the NATIONAL CONFERENCE of CATHOLIC BISHOPS, all dancing, (ballet, children’s gesture as dancing, the clown liturgy) are not permitted to be “introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever.” [NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS (BISHOPS’ COMMITTEE on the LITURGY) NEWSLETTER. APRIL/MAY 1982.]
So the US Bishops said “NO” 26 years ago. I don’t recall them changing their minds.

Please, don’t confuse us with the facts…

 

[elvisman]

Sorry, but I’m not even going to attempt to read your comments this time. Lose the colors.

Colors? Get over it.
Fase it - you won’t respond because you CAN’T.
Liturgical Dance is Liturgical ABUSE.
Besides, if you’re not Catholic - why do you care?

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.