Liturgical ministries & Protestants

[vineyard1]

Can a cantor, or any liturgical minister like reader or cantor, be non-Catholic, who has no intention of converting? As far as I can find out, canon law and church documents only speak of lay people, but doesn’t quantify or qualify these positions for Catholics only, but doesn’t say otherwise either. One of our cantors is a Protestant, shows no reverence, or even acknowlegement, for the altar or tabernacle (but no longer goes to Communion). Father says there’s no reason cantors have to be Catholic. This is not a paid position as far as I know. Our organist, a paid position, only recently converted, but she only played the organ up in the loft.

I need some documentation either way - the Church allows it or doesn’t - it’s becoming quite a controversy, but no one has anything authoritative - just opinion and preference. Please help.

Thanks in advance (and later too).

 

[Exporter]

Cantor? Isn’t that a term used in the Jewish Synagogs. Do Catholics have “cantors”.

Hey dont even like to listen to a good Catholic doing solo singing. I would be tempted to throw things at a nonreverant Protestant who waltzed into our mass and sang out loud. How irreverant that would be! Why hire any one for that matter. We dont want then nor need them.

 

[_veritas]

I don’t have the right documentation in front of me, sorry, but I believe that cantors/musicians do NOT have to be Catholic (but should still show respect for our beliefs as we prescribe), whereas lectors, EMHCs, and servers all must be Catholics, and should be in the state of grace so as to be able to receive Communion.

Maybe someone else knows the actual canon law/GIRM reference.

+veritas+

 

[Catholic2003]

The rule for lay readers is found in the Directory on Ecumenism:

1. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.

I’m not aware of any rule for cantors or choir members.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Exporter:

Cantor? Isn’t that a term used in the Jewish Synagogs. Do Catholics have “cantors”.

Hey dont even like to listen to a good Catholic doing solo singing. I would be tempted to throw things at a nonreverant Protestant who waltzed into our mass and sang out loud. How irreverant that would be! Why hire any one for that matter. We dont want then nor need them.

Yes we have cantors. It would be VERY POOR form to have a non-Catholic cantor leading the responsorial psalm at Sunday Mass…

 

[CatholicNerd]

Pariah Pirana:

Yes we have cantors. It would be VERY POOR form to have a non-Catholic cantor leading the responsorial psalm at Sunday Mass…

Depends on the cantor, I suppose. My parish priest had no problem with me serving as the parish organist despite the fact that I was Lutheran when I started. In fact, my job as the parish organist put me on the fast-track to conversion. Each and every Mass, despite the horrendous liturgical abuses that I tried desparately to combat, was a beautiful and moving experience (even after playing five Masses a weekend!), because I knew that for whatever reason, the Catholic Church posessed the fullness of faith. I began to hunger for the Eucharist more and more. I looked into the liturgical disciplines and started re-introducing sacred music to the parish, a change that was welcomed with open arms. Allowing protestants to serve as musicians in our parishes can bring about some wonderful changes in their lives, provided that they approach the Mass with an open heart and mind and view it as an intimate encounter with God. I would much rather have a devout protestant serve as a cantor at my parish than the hippie ex-nun who has no respect for anything but her own agenda…

 

[m134e5]

Non-Catholics should not be readers- and especially not altar servers or EMHC’s. Anyone who can read well and speak clearly can be a reader. Anyone who can walk and use their hands can be a server and/or EMHC. Not everyone can direct music. The music director needs to be at least an above-average musician. That rules out a lot of people, and it’s not always easy to find a Catholic who will do that. There is no problem with having a non-Catholic cantor, accompanist, or music director- as long as they know what they should know about Catholic Liturgy in order to plan the music for the Liturgy, and enough about Catholic doctrine to know what music is appropriate in a Catholic Church.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

CatholicNerd:

Depends on the cantor, I suppose. My parish priest had no problem with me serving as the parish organist despite the fact that I was Lutheran when I started. In fact, my job as the parish organist put me on the fast-track to conversion. Each and every Mass, despite the horrendous liturgical abuses that I tried desparately to combat, was a beautiful and moving experience (even after playing five Masses a weekend!), because I knew that for whatever reason, the Catholic Church posessed the fullness of faith. I began to hunger for the Eucharist more and more. I looked into the liturgical disciplines and started re-introducing sacred music to the parish, a change that was welcomed with open arms. Allowing protestants to serve as musicians in our parishes can bring about some wonderful changes in their lives, provided that they approach the Mass with an open heart and mind and view it as an intimate encounter with God. I would much rather have a devout protestant serve as a cantor at my parish than the hippie ex-nun who has no respect for anything but her own agenda…

Still is extremely poor form to have a non-Catholic cantor. A non-catholic chorus member or organist? Perhaps. A non-Catholic cantor? No.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

m134e5:

Non-Catholics should not be readers- and especially not altar servers or EMHC’s. Anyone who can read well and speak clearly can be a reader. Anyone who can walk and use their hands can be a server and/or EMHC. Not everyone can direct music. The music director needs to be at least an above-average musician. That rules out a lot of people, and it’s not always easy to find a Catholic who will do that. There is no problem with having a non-Catholic cantor, accompanist, or music director- as long as they know what they should know about Catholic Liturgy in order to plan the music for the Liturgy, and enough about Catholic doctrine to know what music is appropriate in a Catholic Church.

You are wrong.

You are discounting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to a “liturgy” that is graded only upon it’s technical competance and that’s horrible. FAR better to have a less than perfect cantor who believes than someone out for a buck, or simply to perform.

I actually cannot even imagine a non-Catholic cantor leading a responsorial psalm or the great amen…

 

[CatholicNerd]

Pariah Pirana:

You are wrong.

You are discounting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to a “liturgy” that is graded only upon it’s technical competance and that’s horrible. FAR better to have a less than perfect cantor who believes than someone out for a buck, or simply to perform.

I actually cannot even imagine a non-Catholic cantor leading a responsorial psalm or the great amen…

Hey, you know what? The strongest singers in my Gregorian Schola are not Catholics. We have two members who are Syrian Orthodox, one member who is baptist, and one member who is a Lutheran. We give them chant verses from time to time, they do the full prostrations during the consecration right along with the rest of us (how many Catholic singers have you seen doing THAT lately, huh?), and so far the church is still standing. A beautiful voice faithful to the liturgical disciplines of the Church dignifies the Holy Sacrifice waaaaay more than a heterodox Catholic voice.

Oh, wait, now that I think of it… our sacristan is Greek Orthodox and he doubles as an extra-ordinary minister of Holy Communion (with the proper dispensation)! Oh, and he has dispensation from both bishops to receive the Eucharist at our Mass. Oh, wait… A Syrian Orthodox priest supports us with his prayers and donations. What a terrible scandal!

To be frank, the Gregorian Schola and the Chant Mass would NOT EXIST if it were not for the efforts of the dedicated non-Catholics who help us out in so many ways. Our Mass has led many to the Catholic faith and many more out of potentially dangerous groups like the Society of St. Pius X and the CMRI. People drive hours just to be there now! It’s amazing what the Holy Spirit can do through DUN DUN DUNNNNNN SCHISMATICS AND HERETICS!

There. I’m done pontificating. Eat my zuchetto!

 

[vineyard1]

vineyard1:

I need some documentation either way - the Church allows it or doesn’t - it’s becoming quite a controversy, but no one has anything authoritative - just opinion and preference. Please help.

Thanks in advance (and later too).

Exporter - look it up.

+veritas+ and Catholic2003 - Thank you for your help and comments. There doesn’t seem to be much out there on cantors. Just knowing that is helpful. I was hoping there would be something like the qualifications for being a God Parent. Again, thank you.

Opinion appears to be strongly held, right up to the we’re-gonna-start-name-calling mark. What I thought I asked for was ‘here’s some documentation’ or “my bishop such-and-such allows / approves / encourages” or “stopped / frowned on / forbids this” in my area. Or “look it up here”. Authoritative.

I came looking for help and information, not “my way is better than your way” “my choir can out-chant your choir” “my dog is holier than your dog” sarcasm, one-upmanship and 'take that !".

Maybe with more information my parish can be a start to compete with yours.

Not authoritative, but certainly educational. Thanks again.