M
mommyof4
Guest
You know, I get the feeling from many of the people who post on this forum that they just don’t want laity doing anything. Let the priest handle it all. Just sit in your pew, obey, and pray.
- Status
K
Karin
Guest
No…there is a place for the laity…IMHO when the laity starts telling the Church how to conduct its Masses or Sacraments then they have over stepped!
W
Walking_Home
Guest
V
_veritas
Guest
Where’d that come from? I don’t see anything written so far to warrant that kind of remark. However, it does invite a response - so here I go. You asked for it!
I get the feeling from many of the people who post on this forum that they want to help people to understand the true nature and role of the laity in the life of the Church, in which each person is called to offer their own particular service for the good of the whole Church as it is needed – and this is a calling that grants one neither the “right” nor the “empowerment” to freely act in that service “as much as I want to!”
When I look around me, I see so many people who see the liturgy as being the Sunday Morning Show – and these people come from both sets of pews: the ones who don’t really “get” the fact that the Mass is the One, Holy, Perfect Sacrifice in which Jesus Christ is truly Present in the Eucharist, and the ones who do!
Many people, through poor formation, feel that this is their way to “perform” - some, for the community, others more properly think they do it for the Lord. In either case, however, liturgy is not “performed” - it is entered into (as our Holy Father has said over and over again, particuarly in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”).
An example of this is the fact that the Church has never, not during or after Vatican II, said that the “four hymn sandwich” was the right way to go about liturgical planning. What we should be doing, preferably, is the **propers **of the Mass - something that is laid out just like the lectionary, selected by the Church. So why don’t we ever hear those proposed by our “music directors” at our monthly liturgy committee meetings? What is it about simply following the liturgical season and festal days that is so contrary to the culture of music ministry today? Think about it…
Most of us have no problems with the laity offering themselves and their abilities up to God in service to each other - but most of us DO have problems with an entrenched “lay culture” that encourages people to, once they’ve offered their service, either refuse to step aside again (“but Father, don’t make me get off the altar in the middle of Mass because you don’t need another Eucharistic Minister - what will people think?!”) or keep pushing the envelope of their “advisory” role with pastors, pastors who are either happy to let someone else do the job or who are too gunshy to risk appearing “clericalistic” and give in.
For the record, yes, I work at a parish. In a leadership position. And, yeah, I’m a woman! Ergo - I know exactly how a lay person can feel when they are entrusted with a position of responsibility, because I know I have to hold MYSELF back from trying to be too involved in areas that are Fr’s decision. I’d say it’s a real temptation for all of us.
Lay assistance in a parish is fine, but the boundaries need to be clear, and the reality that all of our assistance is both vocational and as needed needs to be re-emphasized to my generation.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
Some liturgical roles of lay people are as the parish priest continues to decide. But two roles that are not are instituted lectors and instituted acolytes.
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“107. The liturgical duties that are not proper to the priest or the deacon and are listed above (cf. nos. 100-106) may also be entrusted by a liturgical blessing or a temporary deputation to suitable lay persons chosen by the pastor or rector of the church.”
The instituted acolyte and instituted lector are not included in this, being described in numbers 98-99. They are given clear preference:
"100. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, lay ministers may be deputed to serve at the altar and assist the priest and the deacon; …
“101. In the absence of an instituted lector, other laypersons may be commissioned to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture. …”
The insituted ministries are descibed as permanent in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“903 Lay people who possess the required qualities can be admitted permanently to the ministries of lector and acolyte.
[footnote 436 Cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 230 §1].”
Canon 230 §1 has: “Lay men whose age and talents meet the requirements prescribed by decree of the Bishops’ Conference, can be given the stable ministry of lector and of acolyte, through the prescribed liturgical rite. …”.
So, for example, an instituted lector can correctly say to the parish priest: “Regardless of whether you are of the opinion that someone else present would be a better reader, I should read since I have been instituted as a lector. Not using me to do the first reading would be like not using a deacon to read the Gospel.”
Lay people are not excluded from this direction in the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum: “[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected.”
Instituted lectors and acolytes have the right and duty to perform their ministries ahead of other lay people.
S
scylla
Guest
Thank you for the responses,
For those who responded positively about the Liturgy Commitee, I would certainly agree with them if the Liturgy Commitee was actually leaning towards Orthodoxy. In my parish everyone is handpicked for the Liturgy Committee and there is no way to be there unless you are part of the group. I would love to be part of the Liturgy Committee.
The same way with the RCIA team, they fired everyone and replaced them with some of the people from the liturgy committee who by the way are in favor of women priests and seem to think that the Church needs to change more.
Everyone wants to be up on the Altar in Church as it is the common feeling that full participation means that you are visibly participating. It is very feelings based instead of being obedience based. Ask anyone who is with type of thinking, they will state that “they feel or they think”, it doesn’t matter what Rome says, what makes you feel better seems to be the rule.
We have more Eucharistic ministers than people in the Church praying the rosary before Mass. I am not saying that EMHC’s are wrong, there is a place for them, many are dedicated people, I know of one in the Parish who brings the Eucharist to the sick.
Sorry…drifted a little back to the point. Liturgy Committees should be held to an extra level of obedience to God. How is the reverse which is common, an obedience to feelings, solved? I would love a Liturgy Committee who supported the Priest and looked for ways to make the Mass more in line with the GIRM, not how to make it more to their image.
How are we to involve the laity in more than looking for personal recognition and toward true service. This is a common temptation for everyone but why are people so inclined to be involved in a public position as opposed to something not public, or even outside of Mass.
What is the solution?
God Bless
Scylla
For those who responded positively about the Liturgy Commitee, I would certainly agree with them if the Liturgy Commitee was actually leaning towards Orthodoxy. In my parish everyone is handpicked for the Liturgy Committee and there is no way to be there unless you are part of the group. I would love to be part of the Liturgy Committee.
The same way with the RCIA team, they fired everyone and replaced them with some of the people from the liturgy committee who by the way are in favor of women priests and seem to think that the Church needs to change more.
Everyone wants to be up on the Altar in Church as it is the common feeling that full participation means that you are visibly participating. It is very feelings based instead of being obedience based. Ask anyone who is with type of thinking, they will state that “they feel or they think”, it doesn’t matter what Rome says, what makes you feel better seems to be the rule.
We have more Eucharistic ministers than people in the Church praying the rosary before Mass. I am not saying that EMHC’s are wrong, there is a place for them, many are dedicated people, I know of one in the Parish who brings the Eucharist to the sick.
Sorry…drifted a little back to the point. Liturgy Committees should be held to an extra level of obedience to God. How is the reverse which is common, an obedience to feelings, solved? I would love a Liturgy Committee who supported the Priest and looked for ways to make the Mass more in line with the GIRM, not how to make it more to their image.
How are we to involve the laity in more than looking for personal recognition and toward true service. This is a common temptation for everyone but why are people so inclined to be involved in a public position as opposed to something not public, or even outside of Mass.
What is the solution?
God Bless
Scylla
S
scylla
Guest
There is a solution to this that has been taken in pretty much every diocese that wants a more liberal approach.
Don’t institute Lectors or Acolytes. That way you don’t have to worry about obedience and you can do what you want.
I called my diocese and asked them if they would institute Acolytes, they questioned my motives, denied that it was a good idea since it is exclusive. I replied to the lady in charge that it wasn’t exclusive to me and she we wont do it and hung up on me!
So having Lectors or Acolytes are not a solution if they wont institute them. That might be good for another thread.
God Bless
Scylla
M
m134e5
Guest
In a big parish with few priests, it may help to have a lay person train the servers and readers, but other then that, the priest should know what to do already- he doesn’t need a committee. A competent musician would know how to plan the music for the liturgies- and may even find it offensive to have others telling him what to do (music directors can tell what hymns the congregation likes best).
C
CRW
Guest
I would suggest that the Music Director coordinates his/her selections with the priest; not a separate affair. Additionally in those parishes that has such committees, it is normally at the direction of the priest, not the lay. So if they desire a committee, they will form one.
M
m134e5
Guest
It is very offensive when someone who is not a musician tells a musician how to do their job.
K
kovalcik
Guest
I think those who have not been on a good liturgy comittee do not really understand what really goes on. We are not there to “plan the Mass”. As said before, the GIRM has already done that. We are there to take care of the background details so that the Mass goes smoothly and all the components come together to enhance the congregation’s experience of the Mass.
As an example of our liturgy committee’s meeting to plan Advent. Our pastor said that he wanted to focus his homilies during Advent on Hope. From this the arts and environment people chose to use the Church’s symbol of hope, the anchor, in the decorations. The music ministries were able to choose Advent music that mentioned hope. By pulling all the details together and unifying on a single “theme” the congregation was reinforced in the Hope of Advent message that our pastor wanted to convey. This is in addition to the normal bookkeeping things like what is the Mass schedule fo rthe holy day, who is doing music for Immaculate Conception, do we need extra readers, ushers, EM, etc. A good liturgy committee makes it so that the priest can focus on the Mass and feel that all the details that he has delegated are all working to the same end to help reinforce, and not conflict or detract, from the message he wants to send.
Also, it needs to be noted that just because a priest goes to seminary does not mean he knows everything about liturgy. I once had a priest who refused to believe that the Gloria was omitted during Advent. I had to show him the documents. So the checks and balances work both ways.
As an example of our liturgy committee’s meeting to plan Advent. Our pastor said that he wanted to focus his homilies during Advent on Hope. From this the arts and environment people chose to use the Church’s symbol of hope, the anchor, in the decorations. The music ministries were able to choose Advent music that mentioned hope. By pulling all the details together and unifying on a single “theme” the congregation was reinforced in the Hope of Advent message that our pastor wanted to convey. This is in addition to the normal bookkeeping things like what is the Mass schedule fo rthe holy day, who is doing music for Immaculate Conception, do we need extra readers, ushers, EM, etc. A good liturgy committee makes it so that the priest can focus on the Mass and feel that all the details that he has delegated are all working to the same end to help reinforce, and not conflict or detract, from the message he wants to send.
Also, it needs to be noted that just because a priest goes to seminary does not mean he knows everything about liturgy. I once had a priest who refused to believe that the Gloria was omitted during Advent. I had to show him the documents. So the checks and balances work both ways.
C
CRW
Guest
Not if the musician is committed to the liturgy and the priest who determines the orfer of the Mass.
K
KatieD
Guest
Today I saw a list of those on the liturgy committee I will be joining, and I’m very glad to say that I know each of them and they are all people who I know follow the Church’s teachings. Having served on other committees with most of them, I know they do not try to usurp the pastor’s authority in the parish but are there more to assist him.
V
Vox_Borealis
Guest
This was my recent experience. Now, to be fair, I go to a pretty orthodox parish, and the mass is celebrated pretty much by the book. We also have a monthly Latin NO mass.
I am a lector at the parish, and I noticed something or other creeping into the mass, and I made a suggestion to the head of the lectors (something to do with sacred silence or the position of the lectors at communion–whatever). He told me that this was a matter for the liturgy committee. OK, so I check the parish bulletin, the website, etc–no information at all on the “liturgy committee.” When I tracked down the lead lector again and asked him about the committee, he told me that it was “new.” OK, so after some more time I decided that I would be interested in serving on this committee (why not–we are always being called for different ‘ministries’ in our parish: music, lector, etc). But when I asked the head lector yet again about the liturgy committee, I found out that it was composed of the heads of the various ministries.
Aha. This is isn’t really a separate committee so much as a meeting of the head lector, music director, and so forth. In other words, the same clique that already runs the show. At this point I gave up any hope of making suggestions or asking questions about mass. I just hope it continues to celebrated more or less faithfully, and it ceases to, I guess I’ll just move on to the next parish.
Now, I am not generalizing about liturgy committees in general, but simply relating my own experience. But it does SEEM like in the few parishes I have attended over the years, there is an inner sanctum that is impenetrable and not particulalry transparent in its methods.
P
pm1853
Guest
Were this a secular job, yes it might be offensive. In a church however shouldn’t the music director be open to direction from the pastor and his possible suggestions? Maybe even the suggestions of a liturgical committee (without compromising integrity to the GIRM, should it come to that).
I think coordination with the priest for musical selections is absolutely necessary, maybe not in the context of a committee but in outside meetings with the pastor. There are some passages he might want to focus on in his homily and some of the hymns he may want to reflect that.
M
m134e5
Guest
Then what is the Music director doing there in the first place then? (I can see a priest telling a cantor who doesn’t have a lot of experience what to do- but not a music director who is also a professional musician- unless the priest himself is also one). If the priest has a request, he can make it. I’ve seen situations where the priest makes the music director use other hymns/choral pieces simply because there are others he likes better. If the priest is going to do that, then why have a music director at all?
If the pastor is qualified to do that, yes. If he thinks something is too loud or too fast or slow, then he can make his comments. If the music director has chosen something that goes against Church teaching, then the pastor should stop them. Differences in personal tastes, however, should be sorted out when the music director is hired.
That kind of coordination is fine. The priest should certainly guide all who help with the liturgy in making the point he wants to make. If he has a hymn he likes, he should be able to request it. He should also give the music director freedom to do their job (i.e. not insisting that the congregation sing Immaculate Mary, Hail Holy Queen, and Schubert’s Ave Maria for every Marian feast day- things like that), and not make them feel like someone is looking over their shoulder all the time.
C
CRW
Guest
I can only say that when a priest hires a Music Director, he does not relinquish his authority as the head of the Church and celebrant of the Mass. All need supervision, all need or have a head boss or leader. A janitor knows how to clean, but a priest may still direct the janitor in his daily duties or task.
T
Titus
Guest
That’s great! A very good example of how a liturgy committee should work- keep it up!
K
KatieD
Guest
Well, I’ve now been to some meetings of our Liturgy committee. And it seems that we do have a few people who seem to feel that it is our job to tell our priests how to celebrate Mass. I’m extremely uncomfortable with the attitude of some of these folks - they seem to have forgotten our true role, to be of assistance to our priests, not to be “the boss.”
- Status