Liturgy Pre-Trent

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Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could explain the liturgy of the Roman Church before Trent. Anyone know any good books or websites that deal with this?

What would I see, how would I participate, what’s going on? 🤷

Thank you.
 
ALotLessThumb said:
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could explain the liturgy of the Roman Church before Trent. Anyone know any good books or websites that deal with this?

What would I see, how would I participate, what’s going on? 🤷

Thank you.
Click to expand...
The Mass of the Early Christians by Mike Aquino (sp?) is a good book. Dom Alcuin Reid has also written some very good books about the Organic Development of the Roman Liturgy. You’ll be able to find these on Amazon.com
 
At various places on line you can download (in English or Latin) the Hereford Mass, Sarom Mass, Bangor Mass (all English uses) and Leipzig rite.

All these pre-date the Tridentine Mass.

And they are all remarkably similar to it. Only some (not all) of the Priest’s private devotional prayers differ.
 
The Organic Development of the Liturgy is a good book, but it won’t answer your question on the matter.

If you live in the USA, you can download two good primary resources from GoogleBooks. One is Tracts on the Mass by John Wickham Legg - look for Buchard’s Ordo. It is like a ceremonial manual. The other is the curial Missale Romanum 1474. The bad part is both of them are in Latin.

The liturgy at Rome was twofold (earlier threefold, and even fourfold) and up until Trent they were gradually drawn to each other in various ways (e.g. uniting the calendar). One was the liturgy of the Curia, the Papal court; the other was the liturgy of the Papal basilicas, and initially the liturgy of the churches of Rome. The churches of Rome eventually adopted the curial missal more or less but the basilicas clung to their liturgy except where changes were commanded.
Even after 1570, the basilicas continued to enjoy certain privileges that set apart their liturgies - for example, the Psalms used were from an older version of the psalter.

This is too general a synopsis and does not adequately represent the various liturgies of Rome. I found The origin of the Modern Roman liturgy as well as Sources of the Modern Roman Liturgy by Van Dijk very helpful in explaining it. Regrettably I don’t have them now or I’d have quoted him on the subject.
 
The Organic Development of the Liturgy is a good book, but it won’t answer your question on the matter.

If you live in the USA, you can download two good primary resources from GoogleBooks. One is Tracts on the Mass by John Wickham Legg - look for Buchard’s Ordo. It is like a ceremonial manual. The other is the curial Missale Romanum 1474. The bad part is both of them are in Latin.

There were multiple liturgies at Rome: twofold (earlier threefold, and even fourfold). Up until Trent they were gradually drawn to each other in various ways (e.g. uniting the calendar) or some were prohibited and or they were combined. (I note here tht the resources above are late and only represent one ‘stream’ as it were)

I found The origin of the Modern Roman liturgy as well as Sources of the Modern Roman Liturgyand even *The Ordinal of the Roman Church *by Van Dijk very helpful in explaining it. Regrettably I don’t have them now or I’d have quoted him on the subject.
 
AJV said:
If you live in the USA, you can download two good primary resources from GoogleBooks. One is Tracts on the Mass by John Wickham Legg - look for Buchard’s Ordo. It is like a ceremonial manual. The other is the curial Missale Romanum 1474. The bad part is both of them are in Latin.
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Thanks for this info. But what’s so bad about the Latin? If we know the (old) Latin Mass, most of the 1474 should be very familiar, I would think.
 
Thank you for the suggestions, keep them coming please. 👍

As for Latin, I know a few people who could assist me in translating it.

However, I wouldn’t know what a real Latin Mass is like (Pre-Trent or Post-Trent) being that I was born long after Vatican II, I wouldn’t even know where to find a Latin Mass around here, and there are several Roman Catholic parishes in this town alone. 🤷 The only familiarity I have with it is a few youtube clips, and what I had to study before my confirmation.

We also have several Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes, are they anything like that?

What would I see if I were to walk into a parish pre-Trent, what would my church look like?
 
There was a thread earlier here about the Mass as it was in the fourth century, and how I noticed it was similar in many ways to the Divine Liturgy.
 
ProVobis said:
Thanks for this info. But what’s so bad about the Latin? If we know the (old) Latin Mass, most of the 1474 should be very familiar, I would think.
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“Bad” if the poster does not know Latin because he/she wouldn’t be able to read it. “Good” if he/she does, or, as he/she has indicated, has someone to help him/her.

As for the old Latin Mass- it will help you with some things in the 1474 but not with everything especially in the Propers
 
Milliardo said:
There was a thread earlier here about the Mass as it was in the fourth century, and how I noticed it was similar in many ways to the Divine Liturgy.
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This is the thread that Milliardo is referring to: The Mass as it was in the City of Rome (though it is not actually from the fourth, but a bit later; somewhere between the 7th-9th century. Sorry for the slip up then).

As an aside, I’m reposting the above thread on my blog on a much more polished form.
 
Here are links to various parts of the Latin Sarum rite used in parts of England up to the reformation. It even stayed in use after the council of Trent as any rite older than 200 years was allowed to be retained. It has been said a few times in recent years so I have included a video link as well if you want to see it in action!

Ordinary of the Mass:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/Ordinary.htm
Cannon of the Mass:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/Canon.htm

English translation:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm

Video link:
youtube.com/results?search_query=sarum+mass+candlemas&search_type=
 
ALotLessThumb said:
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could explain the liturgy of the Roman Church before Trent. Anyone know any good books or websites that deal with this?

What would I see, how would I participate, what’s going on? 🤷

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Because liturgy has always been such a variegated beast, especially before Trent, I’ve found it interesting to note the different responses to a question about “the liturgy of the Roman Church.” AJV’s gut seems to have taken him where mine did in answering about the liturgical uses in the church *at *Rome, whereas others have offered regional usages within the Latin Church.

Here’s the easiest and most helpful answer as to how you would participate, though, wherever you happen to have been asking about: “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”
 
jonnyws said:
Here are links to various parts of the Latin Sarum rite used in parts of England up to the reformation. It even stayed in use after the council of Trent as any rite older than 200 years was allowed to be retained. It has been said a few times in recent years so I have included a video link as well if you want to see it in action!

Ordinary of the Mass:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/Ordinary.htm
Cannon of the Mass:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/Canon.htm

English translation:
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm

Video link:
youtube.com/results?search_query=sarum+mass+candlemas&search_type=
Click to expand...
Technically, it could still be used after the reforms of Trent due to its above-200 years pedigree.

However, both Catholics and Anglicans abandoned the Rite (with the Catholic Recusants adopting the Tridentine Rite and the Anglicans developing the Book of Common Prayer). It was revived briefly during the reign of Queen Mary yet was quickly shelved again. A brief resurgence of interest in the 19th century did not lead to a revival. It was suggested that the Rite be used for the opening of Westminster Cathedral (Catholic) in 1903, but the idea was rejected.
 
Wikipedia.org is a great source for information in regarding the pre tridentine mass in how it was. I don’t know if there were any resources to click on or not. Check there
 
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