Looking for deeper explanation

[E.E.N.S]

I was discussing Scripture with the family tonight and we wanted a more thorough explanation of these passages: (John 1:19-23, Matt 11:13-15, Matt 16:13-14, Matt 17:13) (The Navarre didn’t say much, beither did any of our other Scripture study sources…) When Jesus asked “Who do people say that I am?” why do people think that he was Elisha, John the Baptist, etc? (They saw him with John the baptist, so what exactly was their line of thinking on this?) Also, Jesus seems to be saying that John the Baptist is Elisha come again, but John the Baptist says that he is not. We know that neither here is lying, so what is our understanding supposed to be?

(I have posted the verses below)

*John 1:19-23

19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent from Jerusalem priests and Levites to him, to ask him: Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and did not deny: and he confessed: I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him: What then? Art thou Elias? And he said: I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered: No. 22 They said therefore unto him: Who art thou, that we may give an answer to them that sent us? What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said: I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaias.

Matt 11:13-15

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John: 14 And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 16:13-14

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Matt 17:10-13

10 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first?

11 But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. 12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. 13 Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Any insights?

 

[NotWorthy]

Regarding the question is John the Baptist Elijah:

Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot. Wasn’t there a tradition that he would come back to precede the Messiah.

John may not be Elijah, but one could certainly see why he would be confused with Elijah. Elijah wore a camel’s hair outfit, like John the Baptist. He left Elisha at the River Jordan. Where does John the Baptist preach his message of repentence? the Jordan River. So it looks like John is filling the role of Elijah in heralding the coming of the Messiah.

 

[NotWorthy]

Here’s some more information on John the Baptist as Elijah:

John the Baptist is out in the desert telling Israel that her sins will be forgiven, and her God is here! Now Mark doesn’t spend much more time on what John says, but he does spend some time on how he looks. John was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist. He fed on locusts and wild honey. (1:6).

We see a similarity between John the Baptist and a prophet from 2nd Kings. In this book, King Ahaziah falls ill. He goes and sends his messengers to inquire of Baalzabub, the god of another nation, for healing. Meanwhile, the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite: "Go, intercept the messengers of Samaria’s king, and ask them, 'Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baalzebub, the god of Ekron?’ (2 Kings 1:2) The messengers come back to the king and tell him he’s going to die, according to a prophet in the wilderness. The king then asks these messengers, who is this messenger? "Wearing a hairy garment," they replied, “with a leather girdle about his loins.” “It is Elijah the Tishbite!” he exclaimed (2 Kings 1:8).

Now just as Elijah had a wicked king out to get him, so does John the Baptist, who has Herod out for his head, so to speak. Elijah passed on his ministry to Elisha and where? at the Jordan River. Elisha, who becomes a greater prophet will raise the dead, and heal lepers. John the Baptist passes on the torch to Jesus at the Jordan. So in this Gospel, Jesus plays Elisha to John’s Elijah. Jewish tradition also believed that Elijah would come again to precede the Messiah. This is the role that John the Baptist is filling.

 

[Todd_Easton]

At the end of his earthly ministry, the prophet Elijah (Elias) was taken up alive to heaven in a fiery chariot. (2 Kings 2:11)

Later, the last words of Book of Malachi (Malachias) prophesied:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5-6 RSV, Malachi 3:23-24 NAB)
So, the Jews, taking the prophecy literally, were expecting the prophet Elijah to return in person. That is why some Jews thought John the Baptist might be the prophet Elijah returned from heaven but John denied it, and that is why some Jews thought Jesus might be the prophet Elijah but he denied it.

Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the person referred to in the prophecy of Malachi as ‘Elijah the prophet’ because John the Baptist shared in the same prophetic spirit and power of Elijah:

And he [John the Baptist] will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." (Luke 1:16-17)
John the Baptist was similar in this way to the prophet Elisha, Elijah’s apprentice, who received a double portion of Elijah’s prophetic spirit and power when Elijah was taken up to heaven. (2 Kings 2:9, 15)

 

[E.E.N.S]

Regarding the question is John the Baptist Elijah:

Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot. Wasn’t there a tradition that he would come back to precede the Messiah.

John may not be Elijah, but one could certainly see why he would be confused with Elijah. Elijah wore a camel’s hair outfit, like John the Baptist. He left Elisha at the River Jordan. Where does John the Baptist preach his message of repentence? the Jordan River. So it looks like John is filling the role of Elijah in heralding the coming of the Messiah.

Right, I understand that much, but my question was why did Jesus say that John the Baptist WAS Elijah, and John the Baptist said he WAS NOT?

 

[E.E.N.S]

At the end of his earthly ministry, the prophet Elijah (Elias) was taken up alive to heaven in a fiery chariot. (2 Kings 2:11)

Later, the last words of Book of Malachi (Malachias) prophesied:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5-6 RSV, Malachi 3:23-24 NAB)So, the Jews, taking the prophecy literally, were expecting the prophet Elijah to return in person. That is why some Jews thought John the Baptist might be the prophet Elijah returned from heaven but John denied it, and that is why some Jews thought Jesus might be the prophet Elijah but he denied it.

Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the person referred to in the prophecy of Malachi as ‘Elijah the prophet’ because John the Baptist shared in the same prophetic spirit and power of Elijah:

And he [John the Baptist] will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." (Luke 1:16-17)John the Baptist was similar in this way to the prophet Elisha, Elijah’s apprentice, who received a double portion of Elijah’s prophetic spirit and power when Elijah was taken up to heaven. (2 Kings 2:9, 15)

Okay, so Jesus didn’t mean that John the Baptist was literally Elijah come back?

Next question: why did people think that Jesus was John the Baptist? (“Who do people say that I am?”) They were both seen together…what were the Jews understanding?

 

[Della]

Next question: why did people think that Jesus was John the Baptist? (“Who do people say that I am?”) They were both seen together…what were the Jews understanding?

As now, people could be superstitious, especially when there was no settled theology for them to follow, as we have now since Christ came and established his Church. And even for us, there are still open questions that Jesus did not reveal to us. But, we have enough to guarantee our salvation, which is what is truly necessary.

 

[E.E.N.S]

As now, people could be superstitious, especially when there was no settled theology for them to follow, as we have now since Christ came and established his Church. And even for us, there are still open questions that Jesus did not reveal to us. But, we have enough to guarantee our salvation, which is what is truly necessary.

Was it common for them at the time to see person A with person B, and then when person A died they now think that person B becomes person A and person B ceases to exist?

 

[Della]

Was it common for them at the time to see person A with person B, and then when person A died they now think that person B becomes person A and person B ceases to exist?

I don’t know how common it was, but even today there are people who think that those who have died can in some way possess or inhabit living persons. As I wrote above, there was no settled theology on these issues in that day. That’s why there were factions, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essences, each with a quite different concept of what God expects of us and our relationship to him and one another. It’s what Jesus settled when he revealed the will of the Father to us all.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi the key is, John was viewed simply as being the “spirit of elijah”.

Luke 1:16

Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

So, John was not elijah himself, but he did have the same kind of effect as Elijah, that of drawing people back to God and creating harmony among people.

If I remember right,

Mark 6:14-16 (New International Version)

King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”

Others said, “He is Elijah.”
And still others claimed, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.”

But when Herod heard this, he said, “John, the man I beheaded, has been raised from the dead!”

Herod had John beheaded and apparently was worried that God had ressurrected John. Someone was not sure who Jesus was, so they speculated about such – that is all we see in this above text.

Malachi 4:5
"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

Some people believed that Elijah was going to return before some great event.

thats it, no big mystery

 

[NotWorthy]

Was it common for them at the time to see person A with person B, and then when person A died they now think that person B becomes person A and person B ceases to exist?

How many people do you think saw them together? Couldn’t have been more than 200 people?

Also, remember that even Herod thought John the Baptist had come back to haunt him.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Okay, so Jesus didn’t mean that John the Baptist was literally Elijah come back?

This would appear to be the case. By the way, some speculate that Elijah will literally return from heaven just before the end of the world as one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11:3-12.

Next question: why did people think that Jesus was John the Baptist? (“Who do people say that I am?”) They were both seen together…what were the Jews understanding?

I think this refers to people who knew that John the Baptist had been killed and thought that Jesus might be John resurrected from the dead, as Herod seems to have thought. (Mark 6:16)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I believe that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses that will come back at the time of the anti-christ but I can’t remember which one will testify to the Jews and which one will testify to the gentiles. Does anyone know?

 

[jemfinch]

I believe that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses that will come back at the time of the anti-christ but I can’t remember which one will testify to the Jews and which one will testify to the gentiles. Does anyone know?

Given that Enoch wasn’t a Jew (he was ante-diluvian), and Elijah was, my guess seems pretty much made

Jeremy