Looking for Tradition in all the wrong places

[mainelyned]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

 

[Fidelis]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

The authorship of several of the New Testament books, for one. Looking at Matthew, for example, nowhere in the text itself is the author named. Until the after third century or so when the canon was set, you wouldn’t have found it in a book under the title “The Gospel According to St. Matthew.” Before that time, the Tradition that this book was apostolic in nature and by the Apostle Matthew in particular must have been largely oral.

 

[Ignatius]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

It all came orally. The Gospels and Epistles weren’t written for several generations. Also, you should note that the Gospel itself states that not everything was written down. Most of the faith was handed down through Sacred Tradition.

Yours in Christ.

 

[melandave]

Well basically what you are looking for is the DEPOSIT OF FAITH. These are the sacred traditions handed down from Our Lord by word of mouth to the apostles., which has come down to us through the centuries by the means of the Church, without being altered.

The teachings of Tradition are kept chiefly in the councils decrees, the Creeds of the church, the writings of the Holy Fathers, the Acts of the Holy See and the words and practices of sacred Liturgy.

eg: The doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, on the Holy Eucharist.

This is a place to start anyway…read the writings of the Fathers of the Church, St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas etc.

God bless,

Melanie

 

[Genesis315]

It’s the proper interpretation of Scripture, including the interpretation of the silences.

 

[jmcrae]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

It’s the deposit of the faith as a whole, of course, but there are some songs, prayers, formulae, and poetry that do come down to us with very few changes - the Hail Mary, the Our Father, the Glory Be, the Sign of the Cross, the Consecration (Mass), the words and actions of Baptism - these are just a few.

I almost forgot to mention the Apostles’ Creed, as well.

 

[banjo]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

“In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is** more blessed to give than to receive**.” Acts 20:35
This saying attributed to Jesus by the Apostle Paul is not recorded in any of the Gospels.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13–14). “And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul describes—in Sacred Scripture—exactly how Sacred Tradition is passed on: by hearing—in another word, orally.
Where do I find this oral teaching? Can anyone name something that came orally from the apostles? Did anyone think of maybe writing down some of this tradition? I was asked by a Protestant friend about this and couldn’t come up with one “tradition” that was passed down from the apostles orally. Any ideas??

Oral tradition is all around us. A few examples have been cited – how do we know who wrote the Gospel of Matthew, or Revelation? We know because oral tradition supports their identification. Who was “the Disciple whom Jesus loved?” We know because of oral tradition. How did Christianity deal with issues like abortion? The Bible is silent – but oral tradition tells us.

Much oral tradition was written down – by the Apostolic Fathers and the early generations of Catholics who wrote what was handed on to them. Their writings magnify and illuminate our understanding of Scripture.

 

[mainelyned]

So basically, Protestants who reject Sacred Tradition, and most do, have no idea that they actually accept it? Hmmm…

Thanks for the help!

mainelyned

 

[jmcrae]

So basically, Protestants who reject Sacred Tradition, and most do, have no idea that they actually accept it?

In order to make any sense of the Bible, they have to accept at least some Tradition - particularly the Tradition that teaches us that the Bible is inspired of God, and inerrant.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mainelyned,

The gospels were not written until several decades after the death of Jesus. How do you think the gospel writers got their material?

As for today, how about the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, ordination being limited to men, anything in short, that is not in the Bible but that is part of our belief?

Verbum

 

[vern_humphrey]

So basically, Protestants who reject Sacred Tradition, and most do, have no idea that they actually accept it? Hmmm…

Thanks for the help!

mainelyned

You are correct. Harry Gambel, a Protestant professor of theology in Virginia makes that very point in his excellent little book, The Canon of the New Testament: Its Making and Meaning.

 

[mercygate]

It all came orally. The Gospels and Epistles weren’t written for several generations. Also, you should note that the Gospel itself states that not everything was written down. Most of the faith was handed down through Sacred Tradition.

Yours in Christ.

The gap between history and written record is much, much shorter than “several generations” – decades at most: within living memory of the writers.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The gap between history and written record is much, much shorter than “several generations” – decades at most: within living memory of the writers.

A generation is usually reconned at two decades, twenty years. The earliest Christian documents we have are the Epistles of Paul, the earliest of which were written in the 50s – more than a generation after the Crucifixion.

But equally important is the distribution and acceptance of Christian writings – not every Catholic community had Paul’s letters – the earliest know collection of them is about two decades after his death. By then, there were many documents vying for status – some of which were complete forgeries, written to support some of the most bizzare heresies.

There is no point in the First Century where you can point to a complete collection of Christian documenrts and say most communities had copies and recognized them – and no others – as inspired.

The Moratorian Fragment (sometimes called the Moratorian Canon) dates to the late 2nd Century, and is significantly different from the accepted New Testament Canon. It also shows that there was considerable dissention with its contents – since there are “corrections” written in the margin by a later hand.

Tatian’s Diatessaron was a late 2nd Century attempt to creat Christian Scripture – and it rejects the Canonical Gospels in favor of a synthesis.

By then, of course, all sorts of heretical material was being churned out by various sects and vying for the title of “Scripture.”

As you can see by this, the question of Christian “Scripture” in the early centuries of the Church was complex and confusing, and not until the late 4th Century did the Catholic world come into agreement on the issue.