Lord and Angel of the Lord

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You’re assuming that Judaism operates on a sola scriptura basis. It doesn’t. 🙂
can you please elaborate? because when i was reading some Jewish interpretations, i always read “according to this rabbi” or “according to that rabbi”
 
SedesDomi.

reading again one of your links, it says:

Although Metatron exerts some power over the physical world, he does not have the ability to human forgive sins as HaShem does, for he is a mere messenger of G-d.

But we read:

Zechariah 3:3,4 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”

And here another extremely strange passage:

And the angel of the LORD came, and sat under the terebinth which was in Ophrah, that belonged unto Joash the Abiezrite; and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him: ‘The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.’ 13 And Gideon said unto him: ‘Oh, my lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all His wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying: Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.’ 14 And the LORD turned towards him, and said: ‘Go in this thy might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian; have not I sent thee?’ 15 And he said unto him: ‘Oh, my lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.’ 16 And the LORD said unto him: ‘Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.’ 17 And he said unto him: ‘If now I have found favour in thy sight, then show me a sign that it is thou that talkest with me. 18 Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and lay it before thee.’ And he said: ‘I will tarry until thou come back.’ 19 And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of meal; the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the terebinth, and presented it. {P}

20 And the angel of God said unto him: ‘Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth.’ And he did so. 21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there went up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22 And Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD; and Gideon said: ‘Alas, O Lord GOD! forasmuch as I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face.’ 23 And the LORD said unto him: ‘Peace be unto thee; fear not; thou shalt not die.’ Judges 6

So interchangeable, so mixed, that it was The angel of the Lord accepting worship when the man was asking the Lord to wait and the Lord said He will wait? why would the angel do this in the first place if the LORD was already directly speaking?
 
So interchangeable, so mixed, that it was The angel of the Lord accepting worship when the man was asking the Lord to wait and the Lord said He will wait? why would the angel do this in the first place if the LORD was already directly speaking?
Hi,
May I ask what you do in a rhetorical sense? Do you have authority to tell someone to do something like make 20 copies of a report for you? Some people have authority to tell others to go to war or even just older siblings have authority over the younger. Authority is a real thing.

God is the source of everything to include Angels, correct? I think of the ‘Angel of the Lord’ as an ethereal embodiment of Gods Authority.
St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis (De Coelesti Hierarchia, vi, vii), divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders. Their **proximity to the Supreme Being **serves as the basis of this division. In the first hierarchy he places the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; in the second, the Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; in the third, the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. The only Scriptural names furnished of individual angels are Raphael, Michael, and Gabriel, names which signify their respective attributes.
If Pope Benedict XVI sent an envoy (a Cardinal perhaps) to you personally would you accept that the envoy speaks with the authority of the Pope? Wouldn’t you later tell your friends ‘the Pope said…’ and not ‘the Pope’s envoy said…’ when telling them about the experience?

In that sense I think the verses you listed can be mixed and interchangable without being contradictory.
 
If Pope Benedict XVI sent an envoy (a Cardinal perhaps) to you personally would you accept that the envoy speaks with the authority of the Pope? Wouldn’t you later tell your friends ‘the Pope said…’ and not ‘the Pope’s envoy said…’ when telling them about the experience?

In that sense I think the verses you listed can be mixed and interchangable without being contradictory.
Hi : )

no am not saying the passages are contradictory…on the contrary, they make perfect sense to me as a Christian because the NT says the same and the church fathers say the same… i do not understand, from a Non-Christian point of view, why would the Lord allow an angel, a created being, to be called Lord of Israel, among all the other things reserved only to God?just because he speaks with authority from God?? then all prophets should speak the same:confused: So i do not get why equating the Lord with the Angel would be called blasphemy if God revealed things in the opposite way , revealing passages where the Angel appears yet at the same time it is the Lord personally speaking, or the Angel speaking then suddenly the Lord speaking then again the Lord speaking in just 2 sentences, or the Lord will wait personally to receive an offering from Gideon yet it is the Angel who receives it, or the Lord cannot be seen and live yet the same applies to the Angel by equating seeing the angel with seeing the Lord Himself when the Lord did not include angels. All these cannot be brushed away just because the angel speaks with authority from the Lord that is why am trying to assess any argument presented to see if it is worth believing in instead of how the Lord Himself revealed things…
 
“angel” simply has the basic meaning of “being an messenger”. Look in texts like Exodus 3 and you see that the “angel or messenger of the Lord” is part of the Godhead. Since, Jesus clearly taught that no one has seen the Father. Then, I thinks its likely that men in the OT saw God the Son.

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1521&letter=A&search=angel%20of%20the%20lord
For some reason i always found the identity of the Angel of the Lord mysterious and baffling. Googling it to understand from Jewish perspective first, i was not successful but rather found Protestant or Messianic Jewish sites so i thought maybe it is a Protestant teaching until i read the church fathers saying the same…now here everything was put in place like a puzzle and made perfect sense, but i do not get how Jews are ok with an angel called the Lord of Israel. Agency does not allow for the agent to call himself God, to be called God, or to receive the worship due to God and yet the Angel of the Lord in the OT calls himself God, is called God by others and is even worshiped as God!

Another read:

"Abraham, Abraham, do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."

From me??
 
All these cannot be brushed away just because the angel speaks with authority from the Lord that is why am trying to assess any argument presented to see if it is worth believing in instead of how the Lord Himself revealed things…
I am not sure I fully understand. I never understood the readings as bestowing some specific title of honor reserved for God on the Angel itself even if a title was spoken to the Angel intended for God.

Abraham spoke to ‘three men’ that spoke as the Lord but not identified as an Angel, and Mary responded to an Angel similarly as Abraham with respect to adressing the Lord and not the Angel.

The argument (of the non-Christian) to charge blasphemy is basesless.

If I am misunderstanding I apologize.
 
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