Lord of the Dance

[Cat]

Go to my post #66. I have three versions of the melody. First one is set orchestrally for recitals and never sung at mass. It is the original “Simple Gifts” one.

The second version looks like is some sort of praise night (not sure what denomination). This is how I remember it being performed at mass minus the beer and the clapping. At mass they would usually do it with an organ and with guitar.

The third version was just a folk/Irish style that you would hear at a pub.

We also did not have this problem for our Easter mass either, and as I said, I thought this hymn was long dead. I had no idea that people were still using it as I haven’t heard it at a mass since the 1980s when I was a child.

I first heard Lord of the Dance back in 1976 at college at a Campus Crusade meeting.

I have not heard it since until two weeks ago. I’ve been Catholic for four years now, and I heard Lord of the Dance for the first time two weeks ago at Easter Sunday Mass at my daughter’s parish in Michigan.

In the same Mass, we also heard the Mozart “Alleluia” and the Magnum Mysterium (not sure of the composer, but my younger daughter has sung in this piece at her college–it’s gorgeous). We sang “Christ the Lord is Risen Today.”

And there was some beautiful meditative instrumental prelude with a violin and piano.

And a whole bunch of other hymns, both modern and traditional. And people SANG with all their hearts–I have seldom heard Catholics sing so enthusiastically.

Lord of the Dance was just one of many pieces. It was not the centerpiece of the Mass by a long shot.

 

[Cat]

benedictgal, I have read back through this thread to find the origin of your theory that Lord of the Dance is based on the Acts of John.

I found this in post #12:

“The lyrics may perhaps be connected to the second century heretical Apocryphal Acts of John in which before his Passion, Christ stands in the midst of his disciples and bids them join hands and dance with him, whilst he sings a hymn to the Father.”

There is no documentation to prove this theory. It is just a statement. I’m not sure if it is a theory from the poster, or if he/she actually read it somewhere and didn’t post the source.

When anti-Catholics post ridiculous nonsense about the Catholic Church and fail to give documentation, the first thing we ask them is “Cite your source.”

That’s what I’m asking now. You are stating over and over that Lord of the Dance may have been based on the heretical Acts of John. You have said it often enough that it actually sounds like the truth.

But I don’t believe it.

Please show me a source proving that the composer of the lyrics consciously based his poem on this heretical piece of literature.

Thank you.

 

[Guitar]

Please show me a source proving that the composer of the lyrics consciously based his poem on this heretical piece of literature.

Thank you.

I’d also be interested to know - genuine interest, not looking to be picky. Dance is a common enough metaphor in folk song (see “Tomorrow Will be My Dancing Day”) and although this is recently written rather than traditional, I wondered if it wasn’t as simple as the lyricist just using dance as a metaphor and there be an end to it.

 

[daeve]

I think the best solution for this particular song is for it to fall off the face of the earth, never to be heard again.

I love the song Simple Gifts. It always sounds in my head like the Aaron Copeland piece (sorry, name escapes me, but it might be Appalachian Spring) . When I was in school, we sang different words to this song. I can’t remember much, but it started out, “All our hope of salvation, all our trust in the Lord…” Very nice indeed.

But this…this thing sounds like a merry-go-round song to me. It’s very perky for the subject matter. As an adult, I don’t like to sing it, and as a singer I hate the way we sound when we sing it. We didn’t do it on Easter, but we are doing it this coming Sunday.

When I expressed my distaste at it’s inclusion, almost everyone else in our choir liked it. So go figure, there’s no accounting for taste.

 

[Cat]

I’d also be interested to know - genuine interest, not looking to be picky. Dance is a common enough metaphor in folk song (see “Tomorrow Will be My Dancing Day”) and although this is recently written rather than traditional, I wondered if it wasn’t as simple as the lyricist just using dance as a metaphor and there be an end to it.

I think you’re probably correct, Guitar. But that’s just my opinion.

I did a little googling, but other than discovering the entire article that the Syndney Carter quote was lifted from (the quote that made him look like a pagan), I found nothing to support the theory that he based his poem on a heretical work.

From the little that I have read, Carter sounds like a poet, an artist who is so far into his art that he seems very other-worldly to all the rest of us. When someone asks him what he believes, his answer is yet another poem. He doesn’t seem to be able to express himself without using imagery or creative language.

I can kind of understand this. I tend to be reclusive; I really have to struggle to force myself to associate with real people in real settings. I would prefer to be alone always. Just yesterday, I told my husband that I prefer the fictional friends in my novels, because I can control what they think and say. Perhaps Mr. Carter (God rest his soul) was the same way–someone who just didn’t fit in well with real life.

 

[hawkeye]

I Am I the only one who cannot stand this song durring Mass let alone at Easter.

No you aren’t, I didn’t care for it when we had to sing it at school, and I don’t care for it now, I’ve heard better rhythm coming from a cement mixer.

 

[Sarabande]

In the same Mass, we also heard the Mozart “Alleluia”

LOVE this piece. I sing it quite often along with the entire “Exsultate Jubilate”. The “Alleluia” I’ve sung for a regular mass once, but most of the time I usually do it for weddings or high church Protestant services.

and the Magnum Mysterium (not sure of the composer, but my younger daughter has sung in this piece at her college–it’s gorgeous).

Was it the choral “O Magnum Mysterium” by Victoria/Palestrina/? I’m guessing it probably wasn’t the Victoria as that is usually for Christmas, but it could have been the Palestrina?

And a whole bunch of other hymns, both modern and traditional. And people SANG with all their hearts–I have seldom heard Catholics sing so enthusiastically.

One of the beautiful things with Easter hymns is that most of the hymns are so wonderful, it’s very rare when you don’t hear the entire congregation sing. Some of my favorite hymns are for the Easter season.

 

[benedictgal]

Because we’ve gone through seven pages or more of this thread, this is what driver9 posted in reference to the song:

FWIW:

1. Lord of the Dance was composed in 1963 by the radical English poet, composer and folk singer, Sydney Carter.

1. The tune is adaption of the American Shaker hymn, “Simple Gifts”

1. The composer himself described his own religious views in the following words:
   “I see Christ as the incarnation of the piper who is calling us. He dances that shape and pattern which is at the heart of our reality. By Christ I mean not only Jesus; in other times and places, other planets, there may be other Lords of the Dance. But Jesus is the one I know of first and best. I sing of the dancing pattern in the life and words of Jesus.”

1. Carter said that inspiration for the song came, in part, from a statue of the dancing Shiva (a hindu god) that he kept on his desk and that he was astonished by its success:
   "I did not think the churches would like it at all. I thought many people would find it pretty far flown, probably heretical and anyway dubiously Christian…Anyway, it’s the sort of Christianity I believe in"

1. The lyrics may perhaps be connected to the second century heretical Apocryphal Acts of John in which before his Passion, Christ stands in the midst of his disciples and bids them join hands and dance with him, whilst he sings a hymn to the Father.

Looking at the heretical Acts of John and comparing that to the lyrics does show an alignment, whether one wants to admit it or not. As far as Carter’s own statements, the song is pretty heretical and out there and not at all suitable for the Mass.

It’s also not a reverent way of looking at the great Mystery of our Redemption. It pales in comparison to great maserpieces such as “O Sacred Head Surrounded”, “Jesus Christ is Risen Today” and “Sing My Tongue the Glorious Battle”.

The problem is that those who choose to place this hideous song in their repertoire for Easter (or any Sunday, for that matter) opt to settle for the banal and the mediocre, rather than the solemnity and majesty of music that is fitting for such a sacred act as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Interestingly enough, this past Sunday, our choirs were given a break. My PV celebrated the Masses this weekend and he led us in singing Jesus Christ is Risen Today and other Traditional hymns that we rarely get to sing. Surprise, surprise. The people sang and quite well. They rarely sing the mediocre stuff that is found in the OCP hymnals that we use. They don’t sing the Praise and Worship stuff, which is not meant for congregational singing to begin with; it’s more for performance and show than for the Sacred Liturgy. But, give them something Traditional and simple, and they will sing.

 

[VietCatholic83]

The problem is that those who choose to place this hideous song in their repertoire for Easter (or any Sunday, for that matter) opt to settle for the banal and the mediocre, rather than the solemnity and majesty of music that is fitting for such a sacred act as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[woodland_poet]

Cat, I read your post on the other thread you referenced and I was wondering when you would opine here.

First of all, sentimentalities aside, this song is nonsensical and does not even remotely represent the salviffic mysteries that unfold before us at every Mass. Perhaps you did not read one of the posters’ explanation of the song. There is a lot of heresy in those words that render the song grossly inappropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

OCP does not have any authority over liturgical music. That is a serious error to even consider that they have a power. Even though we don’t use the imprimatur anymore (or the nihl obstat), songs such as The Lord of the Dance are highly suspect. The lyrics cheapen and demean what the Lord has done. Furthemore, they are based on a heretical gospel that was banned by the Church from the very beginning. It does not even pretend to adequately capture how Christ established His Kingdom (he certainly didn’t dance all the way throughout Judea and Galilee), suffered through His Passion, Death and finally His Resurrection. This song is far from the Gospel as one can get.

We all have sentimental attachments to things; but, when they are squarely against the Church’s interpretation and her guidelines for liturgical music then we have take the words of our Holy Father to heart when he writes:

Careful examination of the lyrics of Lord of the Dance indicates that it grossly fails to respect the meaning of the liturgy. Furthermore, to reduce what happened on Calvary as a mere dance diminishes the supreme act of Redemption and love that Christ did for us. Jesus was far from dancing. In fact, the synoptic Gospels tell us that he underwent a painful agony prior to his Passion. Jesus didn’t float through anything. What he experienced was far more deeper and more intense than the triviality of the dance referenced in the song.

Lastly, as good and as holy as religious orders are, we must hold true to what the Church’s interpretation of liturgy is. The religious orders flow from the Church, not the other way around. They are not greater than the Church nor do they speak with her authority.

Thank you for writing this. The Lord of the Dance has annoyed me for years. You have articulated why. Unfortunately, it’s our parish priest’s favorite tunes.

 

[Bran_Stark]

I rather like “Lord of the Dance”. But it is light and carefree-sounding, and perhaps church services aren’t the best time to sing it.

And this Sydney Carter fellow wrote some other hymns that are even more “heretical”. “Every star shall sing a carol” talks about Christ incarnated as an alien in a cradle above the Milky Way. And “Friday Morning”, while it can be read as orthodox, is basically the words of the Bad Thief’s blasphemy.

 

[WetCatechumen]

I had the misfortune of attending a Mass in which this was the recessional hymn.

I was at a loss for words.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’d also be interested to know - genuine interest, not looking to be picky. Dance is a common enough metaphor in folk song (see “Tomorrow Will be My Dancing Day”) and although this is recently written rather than traditional, I wondered if it wasn’t as simple as the lyricist just using dance as a metaphor and there be an end to it.

There are lots of instances of music being used as a metaphor of a similar type, for example the “music of the spheres”. I think dance, which is about patterns just as music is, could easily be a good metaphor for the work of the Divine Logos.

As far as the reference to the gnostic gospel, to be scholarly a lot more is required than what has been said here. The fact that is refers to Christ leading a dance is not enough to show any connection to the song. And just because it appears in a heretical work does not make the idea itself heretical or gnostic.

I don’t think the lyrics are strong theologically, but in itself it isn’t heretical. I like the melody and always have, and honestly it is far better than most of the stuff I have to suffer through when I attend a Catholic service.