LOTH question-okay to do None after Vespers?

[tstadheim]

My church does Sunday Vespers in the early afternoon, usually around 1 or 1:30. Is it okay to do None later on in the day? On a weekday I would do None at 3 if I do it at all (I am laity and not under obligation).

 

[FOG]

Is it okay to do None later on in the day?

I’m assuming you are not ordained, or are not a religious. So, LOTH is a personal devotion, and you may approach it anyway you wish.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m assuming you are not ordained, or are not a religious. So, LOTH is a personal devotion, and you may approach it anyway you wish.

No, incorrect, even if praying it as laity, it is liturgy if you follow the rubrics.

The issue here is not the OP wanting to pray None later in the afternoon. The rubrics say that the verity of the hours must be respected, and None in the middle of the afternoon respects that.

The real issue here is the church praying Vespers at 1 or 1:30 PM. That is most certainly incorrect, and moreover, the church is most certainly required to pray Vespers at the correct time, which is very late afternoon or early evening.

 

[FOG]

Only if done in community. As a private devotion, a member of the laity can pray any prayer any time.

 

[OraLabora]

Only if done in community.

No. That is incorrect. The General Instructions:

The divine office, however, is not private; the cycle of psalms is public, in the name of the Church, even for those who may be reciting an hour alone.

1. Other religious communities and their individual members are advised to celebrate some parts of the liturgy of the hours, in accordance with their own situation, for it is the prayer of the Church and makes the whole Church, scattered throughout the world, one in heart and mind. This recommendation applies also to laypersons.

It is most earnestly not a private devotion, even by the laity, when said in private. It remains public prayer of the Church and is in accordance with the wishes of Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. Pastors of souls should see to it that the chief hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and the more solemn feasts. And the laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.

 

[FOG]

There is NO prayer in the LOTH that is not from scripture. I any member of the faithful wishes to use the LOTH readings in private devotion, outside a liturgical setting, it cannot be prohibited. Otherwise, there is a (albeit remote) possibility that the daily personal devotion and scripture reading of a member of the laity, if it happens to come from that day’s LOTH would be a faux pax.

I do, and I will continue to, use the texts of the LOTH as a source for private devotion.

 

[OraLabora]

There is NO prayer in the LOTH that is not from scripture. I any member of the faithful wishes to use the LOTH readings in private devotion, outside a liturgical setting, it cannot be prohibited.

Actually there are several prayers in the LOTH that are not from scripture. The hymn is not from scripture. The intercessions are not from scripture, and the collect is not from scripture.

You most certainly are free to use elements of the LOTH or even all of it as private devotion.

My point is, though, that it ceases to be liturgy at the point you depart from the rubrics, the calendar, the structure of the Hours and the verity of the Hours, beyond the options allowed by the rubrics. There’s nothing wrong with a private devotion, but if I’m going to go through the trouble of using the LOTH, I may as well go the small extra step to make it liturgy and thus add my voice to the public prayer of the Church; all it requires is that I follow the rubrics, the structure, the verity of the hours and the calendar. It’s not that complicated!

As for the church though, a church (I assume parish) doing it in community most certainly requires that the rubrics be followed. Praying Vespers at 1 pm is not liturgy, and the church in question should either cease calling it Vespers and simply say “we’re going to pray some psalms together”, or move Vespers to the proper time, or if that’s not possible, choose the appropriate Office for 1 pm which is mid-day prayer,

 

[FOG]

Now we seem to be in agreement.

Even though the hymns and daily readings from the Church Fathers are not part of scripture, when we become too legalistic, it makes personal worship too much of a worry and too much of a chore.

For those who enjoy singing hymns as part of their personal devotion, they should not be burdened with ensuring the hymn they want to sing is not part of the daily LOTH.

For those who enjoy reading the Canticle of Zechariah as part of their morning offering (I do), they should not have to worry or fret if that reading is done at 6am or 8:15am, or 10:37am.

 

[OraLabora]

There is actually already a lot of leeway built into the appropriate time to recite an Office. My own personal guidelines based on experience at monasteries around Europe and Canada:

Vigils 1 am to 6 am (for monastics; the Office of Readings in the LOTH is appropriate for any time of day, but is most often first thing in the morning, or by anticipation the prior evening)
Lauds: sunrise/6 am until the hour of Terce
Terce: “mid” morning, or from about 8 am until 11 am
Sext: “mid” day, or from about 11 am to 2 pm.
None: “mid” afternoon, or from about 1 pm to 4 pm
Vespers: evening, or from about 4 pm to 8 pm
Compline: before bed.

If you live in a community of course you are bound by the times fixed by your superior.

I found that after I retired, having a fairly rigid framework to my day helped me make the transition. I am one of those people who thrives on routine. I have summer, and winter hours. I’m switching over to summer hours tomorrow:

5:30 am: Vigils
6 am: Lauds
one of either 9:45 am, noon or 3:45 pm: Mid-day prayer (hour depending on day’s activities)
6 pm: Vespers
8:15 pm: Compline.

In winter I do Lauds at 7:30 am, Terce at 9:45, Sext at noon, None at 2 pm, Vespers at 5 pm, and Compline at 8:15 pm. More in winter as in summer I go out more.

That may seem overly rigid to some folks, but of me it saved my life when it was turned upside down by an early forced retirement.

I should add that my oblate promise requires that I pray at least as much as the LOTH as I can, liturgically, with Lauds, Vespers and Compline the recommended hours.

 

[DarkLight]

I’ve done some pretty creative LOTH times before, simply because I’ve worked some interesting shifts. Night shift was the most fun and I think I just did the hours at whatever counted as “morning”, “midday”, and “evening” for me. Right now I usually do morning prayer around 8 and evening prayer whenever I get to it before bed.

 

[Nigel7]

OP, you are not ordained or religious, so you don’t need to pray LOTH at all, ever.
It’s a nice personal devotion though. Relax.

 

[OraLabora]

Presumably (s)he wants to do it right though. When it’s done correctly, it ceases to be a personal devotion and becomes liturgy, i.e. you participate, even privately, in the public prayer of the Church. There’s merit in that. It doesn’t take away from personal devotion but adds to it.

What is more worrying to me is an ecclesial community (parish? religious community? school chapel?) praying Vespers at 1 pm. A church does have a duty to follow the rubrics when carrying out liturgy.