Lots of folks having "first visions"....

[RebeccaJ]

Pinay, the great work of God is our Salvation, which is found in Jesus Christ.

It is not a make believe story based on the treasure digging dreams of a con man.

If you want to see God’s hand in the Americas, Kateri Tekawitha is a good place to start.

 

[pinay]

Pinay, the great work of God is our Salvation, which is found in Jesus Christ.

It is not a make believe story based on the treasure digging dreams of a con man.

If you want to see God’s hand in the Americas, Kateri Tekawitha is a good place to start.

Hello Rebecca, you are correct.

From LDS Scripture:
(Spoken by God to Moses)
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Thanks for link. Although, I can simply look at the United States Constitution to see the hand of God in America.

The thing about con men is - they usually have something to gain from the con. And that gain must be something greater than the effort involved in coming up with the con, otherwise, it won’t be worth it.

But it’s okay, lots of people think of the entire Christian movement as one great con, so we’re in good company.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hello Rebecca, you are correct.

From LDS Scripture:
(Spoken by God to Moses)
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Thanks for link. Although, I can simply look at the United States Constitution to see the hand of God in America.

You are aware the US constitution is at this time being used to remove God from American society?

The US constitution is not where a Christian turns to. Yet, LDS have put it at the level of scripture. (That particular lds scripture also has a blasphemy in there that the blood of humans has “redeemed the land”.)

The thing about con men is - they usually have something to gain from the con. And that gain must be something greater than the effort involved in coming up with the con, otherwise, it won’t be worth it.

Money, power, women…the usual. Smith was going for them all.

But it’s okay, lots of people think of the entire Christian movement as one great con, so we’re in good company.

This is one of the mistakes the Mormons make. They think because it is possible for Mormonism to be false, that it must be that all religions are false. Of course, this is also based on what you have been led to believe by Smith’s lies about any non-mormon religion. So you see, it is a perfect setup. LDS are bound, and cannot see how to be free.

 

[aquabatix]

From what I can see, JS gain (or attempted to gain) a whole lot from his con. He has authority over other men, people paying tithe to his church, authority to take more “wives” (even the legaly married wives of other men), and enough prestige and power to go from a farm kid to a presidential canidate. Sounds like he had a lot to gain to me. Very different then prophets and apostles who had nothing and were killed without fighting back for their message.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I simply find it strange that there were a few other stories available to Joe about God visiting and suddenly we have a sotry with 9 significant versions about a similir thing.

Joe was interested in the fast buck. He was a treasure hunter. He conned people about digging for treasure. Then he hears these stories and figures he has found a way to really capitalize on it. He parlays the con into becoming a mayor, general, etc. always seeking for glory and people to do his bidding. He would tell people God told him they were supposed to build him a house and poof, he had a house. He wanted women…he just said God told him it was ok.

His problem is, he had no idea how science would progress. Someday, there would be the ability to use DNA to disprove the B of M. Someday, science would be available to actually find the cities and peoples of the Book of Mormon…and fail miserably. Science would be able to prove that the things mentioned in the Book of Mormon would be proven to not existed when Joe said it did. It would all be discovered to be a hoax.

But he never lost faith in the fact that some people, no matter how intelligent, will believe anything. PT Barnum nailed it. And so here we are. For the Book of Mormon to be true, God and Christ MUST be liars. There is no other way.

 

[why_me]

Actually, there is much greater likelihood that he heard about others in his little toww having visions the same time he did than little kids in Portugal hearing about other Marian visitations that happened many years berore theiors in a different country.

Joseph Smith was a teenager when he claimed to have his visitation. He was not grown man. And this makes a lot of difference. To listen to the mormon critics, Joseph Smith would have had to have his quest for ‘world denomination’ as a teenager. And then after inventing his first vision begin work on the book of mormon. And this does seem to be an improbability. No one saw him with feathered pen in hand writing a book. And to think that a teenager would go into the woods to write a book without the knowledge of mom and dad is quite far fetched.

By the way, the fatima children could have heard the talk of their parentif and when they spoke about Marian visitations.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The vision was not published until 1932. Who knows when the vision allegedly happened. One of the other visions was to a 14 year old. Joseph prolly thought that was as good an age as any to claim he had a vision…

And again, prove the fatima children in Portugal heard about anything at Lourdes. We already know some of the alleged visions were published and printed IN PALMYRA

You can stop with red herrings

 

[why_me]

The vision was not published until 1932. Who knows when the vision allegedly happened. One of the other visions was to a 14 year old. Joseph prolly thought that was as good an age as any to claim he had a vision…
You can stop with red herrings

On the morning of September 22, 1823, after being so directed by the angel, Joseph Smith called his family together and related to them his vision and experiences of the previous evening with Moroni, an angel sent to him from God.

This would make Joseph Smith 18 years old when this happened.

 

[SirThomasMore]

On the morning of September 22, 1823, after being so directed by the angel, Joseph Smith called his family together and related to them his vision and experiences of the previous evening with Moroni, an angel sent to him from God.

This would make Joseph Smith 18 years old when this happened.

that is what he SAYS…but he was a convicted conman.

the first time it was PUBLISHED was 1832

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I simply find it strange that there were a few other stories available to Joe about God visiting and suddenly we have a sotry with 9 significant versions about a similir thing.

Since the premise of your argument is “similarity equates to stealing” (if I misunderstood you, please tell me), then your argument proves too much. Anti-Catholics will use the apparent similarities between pagan religions and Catholic, saying that Catholicism is paganism mixed with Christianity OR an atheist will point out the apparent similarities between Mithra and Jesus, dismissing the Messiah as nothing more than a myth. When it fact, Catholicism has baptized pagan practices (such as Easter) but our theology isn’t based on a pagan god but on God Whom suffered and died for us, telling His Story through the ages and even in myth. No, I don’t believe that this is a red herring: you opened up the door by using this premise in your prosecution of Joseph Smith.

But on the other hand, there’s no smoking gun that Joseph Smith stole anything, meaning your argument proves too little. There are other possibilities: young Joseph Smith repeated what he heard with no malicious intent to steal or gain from another vision OR Joseph Smith received a miraculous vision from God that wasn’t unique. (FYI: I don’t believe in the claims of Mormonism, just stating that there’s a possibility.) Since your argument is based on silence, both your version and a Mormon’s of the events are equally valid.

STM:

Actually, there is much greater likelihood that he heard about others in his little toww having visions the same time he did than little kids in Portugal hearing about other Marian visitations that happened many years berore theiors in a different country.

I agree, but this still doesn’t prove that Joseph Smith intended to steal anything anything or rule out the other explanations of the similar visions.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

From what I can see, JS gain (or attempted to gain) a whole lot from his con. He has authority over other men, people paying tithe to his church, authority to take more “wives” (even the legaly married wives of other men), and enough prestige and power to go from a farm kid to a presidential canidate. Sounds like he had a lot to gain to me. Very different then prophets and apostles who had nothing and were killed without fighting back for their message.

The Pope has authority over men (as seen with bishops and how ex cathedra statements can deepen understanding of faith and must be accepted by all Catholics) and the 5th precept of the Church to help the material needs of the Church. Our first Pope Peter had enough prestige to go from a humble fisher man to be a beloved martyr today.

Tithes and authority of others aren’t unique within the church and religions today so I don’t see why these not-unique traits of Joseph Smith’s church prove that he is a con man.