Love verses truth

[mpjw2]

Hi all

Just a little about myself to help you understand where I am coming from

I been baptized as an infant in the CC and been there up until I reach 30 years of age.
About the age of 30 was when God opened my heart and revealed some truths to me and led me on a path of serving Him in ways I would never have imagined.

He led me to a church which I currently belong.

It was there that I felt His presence and love more than I ever had.
God had inspired me to get involved in the church to serve Him in the number of ministries in ways I would never have imagined.

Among Sunday school teaching, prayer ministry, I have been directly involved in and been blessed by an outreach ministry where I would visit homes with 2 other people and lovingly share the gospel.

The most important value we learned in the ministry was in sharing the gospel remember…
People do not care how much you know, until they know how much you care about them.

that is why my friends, I opened this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5680047#post5680047

in communication on these threads which is limited to keystrokes misunderstandings can arise

however I have experienced and seen criticism is unfortunately a 2 way street and that I fear sometimes truth gets in the way of the love Jesus wants us to show each other

Here is an example of what I am making reference to. I left out the posters names because I do not want to isolate them as the only ones who may have similiar beliefs.

on a salvation thread

catholic love

personally, i believe it is all up to Jesus being the judge to decide who gets to heaven and who doesn’t.

Matthew 21:28-31
The Parable of the Two Sons

I believe in this parable Jesus is addressing us Christians who say we believe and follow God but we do not do what is asked of us. while there are those like the prostitutes and tax collectors (the lustful and the greedy) who eventually do God’s works and will eventually enter heaven.

as a Catholic i do not believe that we have the exclusivity of getting into heaven. i find that the Catholic teachings are the most complete and factual. while we get all the facts, we are judged by our actions and not what we know. i’ve seen people of Protestant denominations **who do more good that some of the Catholics **i know.
i’ve even seen **non-Christians do a lot of good more than most Christians **i know.

as Christians and as Catholics we should not think that calling Jesus our God and our Savior is enough. remember, faith without actions is deads. unless we help the needy and the poor and the oppressed, and love one another as Christ has loved us, then we many not be saved

catholic love

you are so right and I agree with you on most things and hopefully never get rude. I am a cradle Catholic who went away for awhile and learned a lot while I was in a Protestant Church. I have since returned to my Childhood Catholic but I have to admit I am still a little Protestant. I expect to be bashed for this as I have been on other posts. One thing I didn’t hear while a Protestant is so many bashes against the CC as I hear On these post against Protestants. **In our community all the Chueches work togehter **And rest assured Many Protestants will be in heaven

In all my years at Protestant Church I NEVER heard one word like I hear here, My former **Pastor and his wife remain friends and came to our wedding and my “spouse” adores them too! **So noe you know the whole story, and if it makes you feel more like a Catholic to be hard on peoplr be my guest I sure am glad none of you are Christ.
Hope you read “poster’s” post cause it is right on

yes some of my feelings are Protestant and probably will always be and I don’t have too much of a problem there because doctrine is one thing and **my relationship with Christ **is another and if you think it’s not seperate then you have a lot to learn.

catholic truth

But your relationship with Christ, is your religion. (Religion comes from the Latin, religiare, which means relationship).

And your religion is your doctrine. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and (like most things Catholic )

catholic love

Maybe when people came into a Catholic thread say a Protestant or what ever they would find a few nice people here with a little of Christs love to guide them They would be happy to become a Catholic
The only reason to become a Catholic is because it’s TRUE. Not because there’s nice people who greet you on a forum or who smile at you at church.

catholic truth

i think there is too much touchy feely… phony touchy feely that is…

Jesus wasn’t all that touchy-feely either. I don’t think there’s a recorded instance in Scripture of him singing
Kum-bay-yah–but, I don’t know, Scripture says that not everything he did was recorded, so let’s leave it open for discussion.

Seriously, you’ve gotta believe that He offended quite a few people with his teaching on divorce. Heck, he’s still offending people with his teaching on divorce. And with his command to eat his flesh.

My response to all of his hard sayings, “Lord, to whom shall I go?”

really - it doesn’t say KumBayYah somehwere in the bible…?

then why are all those protestants singing that song???

so much for sola scriptura…

yes Jesus offended just about everyone…

and I am following in his footsteps…

non catholic love

To say Jesus was not touchy-feely. How sad. What was He doing when he welcomed the little children. Why did He cry when His friend Lazarus died? Are these not examples of showing one’s feelings? That is the problem here.
Not unlike the Jews in the OT, some are so hung up on the rules that you can’t add any degree of humanity to them.
If you are unable to see the value of a smile from your fellow christian in your place of worship then I really do feel sorry for you.

catholic truth

Catholicity is not a matter of emotion,but a matter of truth.

Warm fuzzy feelings are not a substitute for Truth

so we see love vs truth

cont…

 

[mpjw2]

cont…

Are we all taking the value of the following verse

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence (salvation) on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 1John4:16-17

Why is it that when there is one catholic on the thread whose post value love and unity,

their posts are seen as anti-catholic by another catholic on the thread?

their posts I believe are definitely not anti-Jesus

there my friends is the dividing line between catholics and protestants

Some believe their posts, even though they expressed their love for Jesus, is not catholic but “protestant”

and there I believe is the difference between a relationship(love) and religion(truth)

they are two different things

comments welcomed

God Bless us all with love and respect one for another.

In closing I like to sharre with you a message I saw which I pray will bless you as much as it has blessed me

The Last Day (author unknown)

Ten things God won’t ask on that day

God won’t ask …

1…what kind of car you drove, but how many people you drove who didn’t have transportation.
2…the square footage of your house, but how many people you welcomed into your home.
3…about the clothes you have in your closet, but how many people you helped clothe.
4…what your highest paying salary was, but if you compromised your character to obtain it.
5…what your job title was, but if you performed your work to the best of your ability.
6…how many friends you had, but how many people to whom you were a friend.
7…what neighborhood you lived in, but how you treated your neighbors.
8…about the color of your skin, but the content of your character.
9…why it took you so long to seek Him, but instead, he will lovingly lead you to the Gates of Heaven.
10…how many people have read ‘The Last Day’ or (how many people you shared this with) were truly touched by it, because he already knows.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think you win the prize for most ironic thread title.

Just a few months ago, Pope Benedict XVI released an entire encylical called TruthLove in. In other words, you can’t have one without the other. They should not be opposed to one another. Any Catholic who says otherwise is not taking to heart the words of Pope Benedict.

Of course, if you think about it, it makes sense. Jesus is “the Truth” (John 14:6) and “God is Love” (1 John 4:8). God is obviously not in opposition to Himself, although our perceptions of Truth and Love can certainly be opposed to each other.

 

[mpjw2]

I think you win the prize for most ironic thread title.

Just a few months ago, Pope Benedict XVI released an entire encylical called Love in Truth. In other words, you can’t have one without the other. They should not be opposed to one another. Any Catholic who says otherwise is not taking to heart the words of Pope Benedict.

Of course, if you think about it, it makes sense. Jesus is “the Truth” (John 14:6) and “God is Love” (1 John 4:8). God is obviously not in opposition to Himself, although our perceptions of Truth and Love can certainly be opposed to each other.

thank you Joe for the prize.

I very much value Love in Truth
I agree with you they should not be opposed to one another

however, can you see from the examples I quoted how sometimes it seems like love can take a back seat when truth is being presented?

the posters I labelIed as love are those who I believe value what they believe is truth and have presented that truth in the way of love which I also believe they also value

God bless

 

[Joe_5859]

thank you Joe for the prize.

I very much value Love in Truth
I agree with you they should not be opposed to one another

however, can you see from the examples I quoted how sometimes it seems like love can take a back seat when truth is being presented?

the posters I labelIed as love are those who I believe value what they believe is truth and have presented that truth in the way of love which I also believe they also value

God bless

Yes, I definitely do see your point. I didn’t mean to be flip, but the thread title really struck me when I saw it.

Charity often does (unfortunately) go out the window on forums such as this when we are trying to discuss issues of truth that are so near and dear to our hearts. I don’t know what I can say except that it shouldn’t be like that. It’s just evidence that we’re all sinners.

Part of it is that I think some people are more comfortable with “brusque” language and they don’t understand why people are offended by it. Another part is that some people think that presenting the truth is automatically an action of love, no matter how they proceed to do it.

I know you’re not Catholic anymore, but I would recommend looking at that encyclical, even just the Introduction. I think it does a good job in explaining how presenting the truth in love should be done. That’s what I aspire to do anyway.

I find it best to ignore the uncharitable posts and focus on the rest.

 

[Hisalone]

Does anyone here think that when they get to heaven there will be a Baptist section, a Catholic section, a Methodist section, a Orthodox section? Of course not so what is it that will be common for all of us in heaven? Is it not love?

 

[mpjw2]

Does anyone here think that when they get to heaven there will be a Baptist section, a Catholic section, a Methodist section, a Orthodox section? Of course not so what is it that will be common for all of us in heaven? Is it not love?

Hi hisalone,

Good point which I agree 100%

but and there is always a but, some catholics have posted that by the time we get to heaven we will all be catholic, either at the time of our death or a divine transformation process in purgatory.

 

[Hisalone]

Hi hisalone,

Good point which I agree 100%

but and there is always a but, some catholics have posted that by the time we get to heaven we will all be catholic, either at the time of our death or a divine transformation process in purgatory.

For me that is quite sad.

 

[mpjw2]

For me that is quite sad.

finding the answer to a question like “Is this Truth, we get transformed in purgatory” keeps these threads alive

 

[kalt]

however, can you see from the examples I quoted how sometimes it seems like love can take a back seat when truth is being presented?

And sometimes truth takes a backseat. Some people think that truth doesn’t matter, so long as they have “love” in their heart. If you have this love in your heart, wouldn’t you want the love to be guided by truth?

The kind of love I think you’re talking about (service to your neighbors) is wonderful, but does practicing that kind of love mean that you have to drop everything else?

In Catholicism, love is truth. Your saying Love vs Truth is a misunderstanding of what love and truth are. One is not opposed to the other.

Am I mistaken, or do you believe that one can’t accept all of the truth (as expressed in the CC) and love, too?

 

[mpjw2]

Hi kalt, thank you for this post for clarification. asking questions is wonderful I am happy to answer

And sometimes truth takes a backseat.

I agree

Some people think that truth doesn’t matter, so long as they have “love” in their heart. If you have this love in your heart, wouldn’t you want the love to be guided by truth?

absolutely

The kind of love I think you’re talking about (service to your neighbors) is wonderful, but does practicing that kind of love mean that you have to drop everything else?

service to neighbors yes, but at the cost of truth…never

In Catholicism, love is truth.

agree…as should be with all christians

Your saying Love vs Truth is a misunderstanding of what love and truth are. One is not opposed to the other.

what I am saying in love vs truth is that…hmm

a pratical illustration I believe you will understand

I’m a car salesman… I believe my 2010 sedan is the best car on the market.

you walk into my dealership
i meet you at the door
introduce myself, ask your name
you tell me you are looking for a 2010 sedan
I say to you “we have the car you are looking for, as a matter of fact it is the #1 sedan on the market today”
I walk you to the car, we go for a test ride, you tell me you like it, we get back to the office, where I pull out the sales documents, tell you the price and immediately ask you to start filling out the documents and in a short time the car will be yours
vs

same dealership different salesman who believes the same 2010 sedan is the best on the market

You walk in the shop, everything is the same but instead of saying to you “we have the car you are looking for, (even though the salesman might believe it is) asks you first …,
“what kind of sedan…2dr or 4dr , any features interest you, what will you be using the sedan for…business or pleasure?”
Then he says “let me show you what I have and let me know if you want to take it for a test drive”

after the test drive and back at his office, he discusses with you what you like about the car, service department, and when it comes to discuss price, he ask questions to find out your price range even before any sales documents are presented.

**Who would you most likely by the car from?

why?**

Am I mistaken, or do you believe that one can’t accept all of the truth (as expressed in the CC) and love, too?

Kalt, it is obvious you and I have different beliefs on what we believe to be absolute truth.

when you say something I disagree with I can tell you that you are wrong,

or

ask you questions to understand why you believe the way you do
I would not be sacrificing what I believe is truth, but I am not going to ask which is the more loving approach.

The reasos for this tnread is to illustratw to some of the posters on these threads that they can use a little dose of love in their posts

God knows how many non christians read these threads and are turned away because of the content of some of these threads as I gave an example in the OP
thank you again for asking
please ask some more if you have any

God bless

 

[kalt]

Hi kalt, thank you for this post for clarification. asking questions is wonderful I am happy to answer

I agree

absolutely

service to neighbors yes, but at the cost of truth…never

agree…as should be with all christians

what I am saying in love vs truth is that…hmm

a pratical illustration I believe you will understand

I’m a car salesman… I believe my 2010 sedan is the best car on the market.

you walk into my dealership
i meet you at the door
introduce myself, ask your name
you tell me you are looking for a 2010 sedan
I say to you “we have the car you are looking for, as a matter of fact it is the #1 sedan on the market today”
I walk you to the car, we go for a test ride, you tell me you like it, we get back to the office, where I pull out the sales documents, tell you the price and immediately ask you to start filling out the documents and in a short time the car will be yours
vs

same dealership different salesman who believes the same 2010 sedan is the best on the market

You walk in the shop, everything is the same but instead of saying to you “we have the car you are looking for, (even though the salesman might believe it is) asks you first …,
“what kind of sedan…2dr or 4dr , any features interest you, what will you be using the sedan for…business or pleasure?”
Then he says “let me show you what I have and let me know if you want to take it for a test drive”

after the test drive and back at his office, he discusses with you what you like about the car, service department, and when it comes to discuss price, he ask questions to find out your price range even before any sales documents are presented.

Who would you most likely by the car from?

why?

Kalt, it is obvious you and I have different beliefs on what we believe to be absolute truth.

when you say something I disagree with I can tell you that you are wrong,

or

ask you questions to understand why you believe the way you do
I would not be sacrificing what I believe is truth, but I am not going to ask which is the more loving approach.

The reasos for this tnread is to illustratw to some of the posters on these threads that they can use a little dose of love in their posts

God knows how many non christians read these threads and are turned away because of the content of some of these threads as I gave an example in the OP
thank you again for asking
please ask some more if you have any

God bless

One care salesman is more manipulative than the other. One implies, by giving the price, that the price is not negotiable. The other is fishing for information that will tell him how gullible the customer is.

The first has determined for the customer which car he wants. The 2nd asks questions.

I’m not sure where I see the “love” in these exchanges.

Your efforts to “educate” people on the forum about “love” are admirable, but it seems that you don’t understand that truth is love.

 

[mpjw2]

One care salesman is more manipulative than the other. One implies, by giving the price, that the price is not negotiable. The other is fishing for information that will tell him how gullible the customer is.

The first has determined for the customer which car he wants. The 2nd asks questions.

I’m not sure where I see the “love” in these exchanges.

Your efforts to “educate” people on the forum about “love” are admirable, but it seems that you don’t understand that truth is love.

 

[mpjw2]

One care salesman is more manipulative than the other. One implies, by giving the price, that the price is not negotiable. The other is fishing for information that will tell him how gullible the customer is.

you say gullible, I am thinking his expression to the customer that he cares about his needs first ( love) to make sure that even before he mentions anything about the car, there a good chance the customer will be open to the possibility of a sale.
the first salesman, me, didnt care about your needs, I just wanted that commision check.

I guess I used a bad example.

from your reply, (gullible) may I ask, In a business type scenario, is there anything a car salesman can do which would cause you to feel he cares about you vs to see how gullible you are?

The first has determined for the customer which car he wants.

yes, and he has no idea at that point if that IS the car the customer want.

the 2nd asked questions

and by asking questions the salesman may find out from the customer’s answers the car might not be what the customer is looking for.

I’m not sure where I see the “love” in these exchanges.

I realize it is difficult to comminicate by only keystrokes

I hope that helped

Your efforts to “educate” people on the forum about “love” are admirable, but it seems that you don’t understand that truth is love.

I believe I do

Kalt, when you read through all the quotes in the OP, what picture do you see?

still have doubts I understand truth is love ?

Kalt, I believe in my heart of hearts that I will be another one you will add to your best friend list.

send me your address or cell phone # in pm so that we can start on our newly found friendship.

what are the chances of you sending that information to me?
however, by this time next year, after we had communicated both on the threads and in PM where we have a more information about each other, you might be a little less resistant than you are right now.

heck, l believe I can be anyone’s best friend (truth)

I also realize in order for that to happen, I need to exercise my faith and belief by acting in care and love towards the other person first before I can ever begin to expect the other person feels the same way about me

Do you see I have love in truth now?

oops you said truth is love not
love in truth

ok 2 questions

what is more important

telling the truth first and foremost to someone because you love them

or

first and foremost developing a trust with them in love before telling them the truth?

God bless

 

[Joe_5859]

I guess I used a bad example.

Yes, “car salesman” is not the first thing we usually think of when looking for examples of “love”.

ok 2 questions

what is more important

telling the truth first and foremost to someone because you love them

or

first and foremost developing a trust with them in love before telling them the truth?

God bless

I think we need to do both, in a sense. I agree with you that it is very important to build trust with people. If you are stand-offish and come off as mean, no one is going to listen to a word you say.

But, we build trust with people by being honest with them. This doesn’t mean we go up to our co-worker’s friend who is cheating on their spouse and say “Adulterer!” But we don’t want to come across as though we are “hiding” our true beliefs and feelings, either. Else, when those feelings come out, we might lose trust if the person felt misled.

It’s sort of a balancing act in some ways. It’s hard to go up to a complete stranger and “convert” them unless you have love. Most of the times, we are not converted by strangers but by friends (and, of course, I realize that it is God who does the converting and we are simply the tools he uses in the lives of others). Those special people that are able to convert strangers are people like Mother Teresa (or fill in with the name of any holy non-Catholic Christian you know ) who exude love because of their close relationship with the Lord.

 

[mpjw2]

Yes, “car salesman” is not the first thing we usually think of when looking for examples of “love”.

I think we need to do both, in a sense. I agree with you that it is very important to build trust with people. If you are stand-offish and come off as mean, no one is going to listen to a word you say.

But, we build trust with people by being honest with them. This doesn’t mean we go up to our co-worker’s friend who is cheating on their spouse and say “Adulterer!” But we don’t want to come across as though we are “hiding” our true beliefs and feelings, either. Else, when those feelings come out, we might lose trust if the person felt misled.

It’s sort of a balancing act in some ways. It’s hard to go up to a complete stranger and “convert” them unless you have love. Most of the times, we are not converted by strangers but by friends (and, of course, I realize that it is God who does the converting and we are simply the tools he uses in the lives of others). Those special people that are able to convert strangers are people like Mother Teresa (or fill in with the name of any holy non-Catholic Christian you know ) who exude love because of their close relationship with the Lord.

Joe, I agree with you about being able to balance truth and love.

how would the world be if we all can be that special person in love and truth to ALL people we meet.

let all see the love and truth of Jesus in us

God bless

 

[yankee_doodle]

catholic love

catholic love

catholic truth

catholic love

catholic truth

non catholic love

catholic truth

so we see love vs truth

cont…

How are you not doing the same thing you accuse your theological opponents of doing? I assume you’re old and smart enough to know that your words are fighting words, and therefore you’re knowingly picking a fight – while at the same time claiming you’re religious system is superior to that of your foe because it’s “more loving”?

IMO you’re contradicting yourself & showing that indeed no religion is different than the other in its basic characteristics – that is it’s all man-made & therefore subject to the same propencity for inspiring intolerance among its adherents.

 

[mpjw2]

How are you not doing the same thing you accuse your theological opponents of doing? I assume you’re old and smart enough to know that your words are fighting words, and therefore you’re knowingly picking a fight – while at the same time claiming you’re religious system is superior to that of your foe because it’s “more loving”?

IMO you’re contradicting yourself & showing that indeed no religion is different than the other in its basic characteristics – that is it’s all man-made & therefore subject to the same propencity for inspiring intolerance among its adherents.

yankee, I apologize if I am coming accross in an accusing way.

where did you see I am accusing anyone of anything so I know what you are referring to

all posters I believe have truth and love in their hearts

but…

where communication is limited to keystrokes, I highlighted posts what I believed came accross to me in love first vs in truth first.
as you saw one poster said they believed Jesus was not touchy feely

definitely a post what they believed to be true

God bless

mpjw