Love your neighbor

[MtnDwellar]

Yes, I agree with you that amnesty for peaceful immigrants is in full measure consistent with Church teachings on love of neighbor, and that a person cannot serve two masters: Caesar and Jesus.

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I believe that you realize I did not say that amnesty was a good idea.

Peaceful immigrants are in no need of amnesty. Only illegal immigrants have a need.

How would you treat illegal immigrants who are convicted of crimes such as robbery, rape, drugs, or molestation?

 

[Stylites]

How would you treat illegal immigrants who are convicted of crimes such as robbery, rape, drugs, or molestation?

Assuming that lawful visas don’t act like magical talismans to ward off evil actions, it shouldn’t matter the immigration status of violent criminals as far as punishment goes. Deportation afterwards would be just in the eyes of the Church, as I believe the Church rightly only condemns the deportation of peaceful immigrants, not violent ones.

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[distracted]

The question of illegal immigration was not on my mind when I posted this thread. This is a very complex situation that we now find our selves in. I love the Mexican people, and must interact with them almost on a daily basis in my line of work. I do not believe however in illegal’s crossing our borders, not only are good hearted decent people crossing over but many that seek to do us harm. That being said, I would like to pose a question: If you were a hard working, decent person of any nationality and you saw the land of opportunity with its gates wide open for you; would you cross over illegally?

no because i respect law and order…

$$ and the “good life” it can bring are NOT what life is about…

 

[distracted]

Christ certainly taught us to love our neighbors. He also taught us to obey civil laws. I believe that we are showing love to those illegals who we deport. They committed a crime by entering the country illegally. Are we going to punish them for that? No! We are merely going to send them back to their country of origin and welcome them back again, should they decide to enter legally. That shows a great Christian quality of forgiveness.

No country allows for undocumented immigration. Immigration laws are necessary to insure the health and prosperity of a nation. If people enter the country illegally, they are threatening the fabric of our nation.

amen…

and when we allow illegals to come here & settle down… it just shows them that we don’t even respect our own laws… or our own peple…

Frankly i know people who are Legally here… and… don’t know enough to say really, but my instict tells me that even some Mexicans who are legal don’t respect Americans… and some go so far as to SHOW their disrespect… it is total foolishness to open our borders to outsiders… We should be cautious of ANYONE from a foreign country coming to live here. I mean, for one thing… Why does a person move to a totally different coiuntry where he is a stranger? ther always is a very compelling reason… and God in heaven knows what that reason might be…

 

[MtnDwellar]

Assuming that lawful visas don’t act like magical talismans to ward off evil actions, it shouldn’t matter the immigration status of violent criminals as far as punishment goes. Deportation afterwards would be just in the eyes of the Church, as I believe the Church rightly only condemns the deportation of peaceful immigrants, not violent ones.

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Which bishops said what? Please give a reference.

Here is where your statements will teach against your argument for amnesty:

You say that deportation is just regarding illegal alien criminals. However, justice has to be equal for all. If the illegal aliens are deserving of amnesty, it has to be the same for all illegal alien criminals. An illegal alien drug dealer should be treated the same as a citizen drug dealer if we are to have a just system which practices your idea of incorporating love of neighbor into the legal system. You are implying that you will forgive the crime of illegal entry into our country, only if you are not convicted of another crime. How about fraud? What if an illegal alien has fake ID’s and is also guilty of fraud. Are we to also give amnesty for fraud? What if the illegal alien is driving without a license or insurance? Forgiveness again?

My thinking is that deportation of those who have entered our country illegally is fitting.

 

[Stylites]

My thinking is that deportation of those who have entered our country illegally is fitting.

Think what you want; while the Church teaches something else.

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[MtnDwellar]

Think what you want; while the Church teaches something else.

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Which bishops said what? Please give a reference.

 

[MariaTheresa]

Do those of you talking about it being charity to deport illegals and that you would never cross into a country illegally because you have respect for law and order etc etc HEAR YOURSELVES ?? You miss entirely the point of the good samaritan story out of your fear and self righteousness. No one is saying our laws are bad or wrong but that these people are here and that they are PEOPLE for whom Christ died. The majority come to this country ( yes with their children) because they are desperately poor. They come FOR their children not because they are being irresponsible as parents. They are hungry and their children are hungry. No one wants to leave their own homes and migrate. no one on the face of the earth. It is done only when it has to be done. And yes some are criminals most definetly and they should be prosecuted/deported. And yes for many many years no one has enforced protected our borders and that should be fixed. But while they are here we must bind up their wounds, feed them, be kind and love them and we would love ourselves because that is the bare minimum of what the gospel requires for a christian. The same as we would for anyone else. This must be the foremost thing in our hearts. Everything else is secondary if we are to follow Christ.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Do those of you talking about it being charity to deport illegals and that you would never cross into a country illegally because you have respect for law and order etc etc HEAR YOURSELVES ??

**I think that illegal immigrants should be deported. It is not because of my great respect for law and order. If I were in the same desperate situation, I would probably do the same thing. However, there are risks associated with that action and also consequences. **

You miss entirely the point of the good samaritan story out of your fear and self righteousness. No one is saying our laws are bad or wrong but that these people are here and that they are PEOPLE for whom Christ died. The majority come to this country ( yes with their children) because they are desperately poor. They come FOR their children not because they are being irresponsible as parents. They are hungry and their children are hungry.

**I entirely understand the point of the Good Samaritan. I am willing to help my neighbor. Are you? There are at least ten percent of Americans who are unemployed and are facing the prospect of losing their homes and being unable to feed their families. We still have families living in tents and under bridges since Katrina. Our country is broken. Our debt is astronomical. Those who are willing and able to help our brothers and sister from other countries should definitely do so. They should not place the burden on the backs of people who already cannot take care of themselves. If an immigrant wants to come here and make a better life for himself, I welcome him. The only catch is that he has to do it legally. **

No one wants to leave their own homes and migrate. no one on the face of the earth. It is done only when it has to be done. And yes some are criminals most definetly and they should be prosecuted/deported.

Apparently there millions who want to leave their homes. My understanding is that they are most all committing crimes other than illegal immigration. They commit fraud to obtain identification. They work, get paid, but do not pay taxes. They come here with the intention of defrauding us and stealing from the government.

And yes for many many years no one has enforced protected our borders and that should be fixed. But while they are here we must bind up their wounds, feed them, be kind and love them and we would love ourselves because that is the bare minimum of what the gospel requires for a christian.
**
The gospel requires to us help our neighbor. Nowhere does it require us to force our neighbors to help others. I am all in favor of you finding some needy families across the border and sending them monthly checks. That would be wonderful. Do not force the burden of helping others on people who already cannot take care of themselves.**

The same as we would for anyone else. This must be the foremost thing in our hearts. Everything else is secondary if we are to follow Christ.

 

[MariaTheresa]

They should not place the burden on the backs of people who already cannot take care of themselves

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Explain this statement please. Who is placing what burden on whom? Are you speaking of those advocating for blanket amnesty?

I am willing to help my neighbor. Are you?

Of course, I am a Catholic. I have worked in social services for years and also through the Church . I have given and received much.

Apparently there millions who want to leave their homes. My understanding is that they are most all committing crimes other than illegal immigration. They commit fraud to obtain identification.

I submit that this is all part of “coming here illegally” and is essentially the same crime not part of a separate nefarious plot to bring down our country. It is part of trying to get established here. They cannot pay taxes by virtue of their illegal status.

Nowhere does it require us to force our neighbors to help others

Again, please explain this statement. Are you speaking of the gov’t giving food stamps, medical care to those who are here? Should they starve or go without treatment or should their children until we get the immigration problem straightened out? Seriously? Because that is what would happen. Have you or your family ever gone hungry? Your children? Or been with out medical care? My family has. What is the difference between survival and despair? The difference is Mercy. Not earned help. Mercy. That is the Heart of the Lord.
Hasn’t He told us this? What are we more afraid of ? Losing our idea of country or our possessions or our salvation, our relationship with Him?

Again, I believe that the immigration system and mostly the border is not being addressed but we have border guards shooting and killing teenage mexican children at the border who are trying to cross and our citizens getting shot by drug gangs on the mexican side. BOTH have to stop.Both are equally wrong.

If the good samaritan story was modern day I think people would say
should the traveler (in the good samaritan) have been on that road? Maybe he didn’t belong there. Maybe it was his fault. Maybe he should have known better than to travel alone with money like that on him. Maybe it served him right. Maybe he should have “learned his lesson”. But Jesus didn’t say those things did he ?

 

[Stylites]

One has to wonder how those Christians who are so set against illegal immigration that it becomes their reason for existence, how they see their neighbor: as the image of Christ or as some great and scornful enemy.

“Ah, there’s probably some illegal. Caesar disapproves of him, and therefore so do I. He probably just committed some nefarious and violent crime, as most of them do, and therefore I will shun him and look down upon him, and treat him with contempt because he probably so treats me with contempt by stealing my dishwasher job and by not kissing my boots.” or “Ah, there’s someone who is probably stealing from the government who steals from me! He better keep away from my coveted socialist benefits; because of the accident of my birth I deserve it and he doesn’t, and my hope is in Caesar who provides all things good! I resent my neighbor stealing from Caesar, and while I also resent Caesar stealing from me, Caesar is all-powerful and my neighbor is so weak, so it’s okay that I vent against him who steals from Caesar rather than at Caesar who steals from me.”

Where one’s treasure is, there is one’s heart.

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[MtnDwellar]

Stylite, you seem a bit over the top. I have never heard of anyone whose reason for existence is to oppose illegal immigrants.

I do not look down on illegal immigrants. I am no better than they, especially not because of an accident of birth. We are on different paths.

I have learned that different people show charity in various ways. I personally do not support animal rights groups. I do not oppose them, but, with so many people suffering, I choose to lend my support to helping people. I leave the help for animals to those whose heart takes them in that direction. God loves animals. Does it make me less Christian because I direct my efforts in a different way?

In regard to illegal aliens, some people are lead to help them. That’s great. I lend my support to help people who are suffering in other ways. I resent the implication that not helping illegal immigrants is Unchristian. There are many other groups of people who also need help.

Immigration laws are used to protect me, my family, and my neighbors. I see the harm done by illegals. You see the good that they do. We are both right. I have no problem with anyone wanting to help illegal aliens or anyone else who needs help. The problem with offering amnesty, as opposed to deportation, is that all of the citizens will be effected. Some of us would rather see our efforts go toward helping different groups. We should not have people forced upon our citizenry because those individuals have entered our country illegally.

There are many arguments for and against amnesty. We cannot address them on this bulletin board. I will not standby while someone questions my dedication to Christ and the Catholic church based upon my views of illegal immigration. Those things are too important.

 

[Stylites]

I have no problem with anyone wanting to help illegal aliens or anyone else who needs help. The problem with offering amnesty, as opposed to deportation, is that all of the citizens will be effected. Some of us would rather see our efforts go toward helping different groups. We should not have people forced upon our citizenry because those individuals have entered our country illegally.

It is ludicrous to imagine that forcing the deportation of 18 million people and the resulting hardship and heartache of families being ripped apart can be a viable option, and can in any way compare to any supposed harm to citizens which granting amnesty or a token fine would bring, and certainly calling for the forced deportation of otherwise peaceful people is not a great act of charity.

No one “forces” illegal immigration except the politicians and their constituents who purposely limit the number of available lawful visas.

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[MtnDwellar]

It is ludicrous to imagine that forcing the deportation of 18 million people and the resulting hardship and heartache of families being ripped apart can be a viable option, and can in any way compare to any supposed harm to citizens which granting amnesty or a token fine would bring, and certainly calling for the forced deportation of otherwise peaceful people is not a great act of charity.

No one “forces” illegal immigration except the politicians and their constituents who purposely limit the number of available lawful visas.

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You put the word “forces” in quotes as if you were quoting me. I never said that anyone forces illegal immigration. I said that granting amnesty forces people upon our citizenry.

Of course the immigration laws limit the number of visas! That is exactly their purpose. If we were to let any and all people entry into our country, we would not have laws that govern immigration.

There are basically four reasons that we control immigration:

1. Public Safety. Immigration laws are designed to keep criminals, psychopaths, and other dangerous people from entering our country.
2. Public Health. Immigration laws keep people with dangerous communicable diseases from entering our country and causing health risks.
3. Controlling unemployment. There have been times when our unemployment rate was low and more visas were issued in order insure that companies had the right number and the right type of workers. When unemployment is high, visas are limited to help keep jobs for Americans and to try to inhibit depression of wages.
4. National Security. Immigration laws attempt to keep people out who may undermine the government or commit acts of terrorism.

These are all valid reasons to have laws. Circumventing these laws poses risks to everyone in our country.

Of course we cannot deport the 12-18 million illegals. We also cannot capture every murderer or rapist. It does not mean that we should not try.

 

[tonyg]

no because i respect law and order…

$$ and the “good life” it can bring are NOT what life is about…

I agree, it is wrong and against the law of our land. I believe that any politician that does not inforce the law is as guilty as the person crossing the border. I will take this into consideration before I vote for anyone this election day.