Loving our LGBT neighbor without compromising the truth?

[jtav]

Two of my hobbies (musical theatre and fandom) are disproportionately enjoyed by LGBT people. When I came back to the Church, I made it clear there were things I wouldn’t participate in and have explained Church teaching a couple of times.

But almost all of them have suffered unjust discrimination. Slurs, being left homeless, beatings, fired from secular jobs, etc. Some of them would turn your stomach. Things the Church justly condemns. So how can we order things so that the the truth about sexuality *and *their dignity as humans is upheld?

 

[Cheiron]

You mean, how can you tell them homosexuality is, as the Catechism says, intrinsically disordered and still respect them? I don’t think you can. Those things sounds contradictory to me. And my guess is, they will sound contradictory to your LGBT neighbours too.

 

[goout]

You mean, how can you tell them homosexuality is, as the Catechism says, intrinsically disordered and still respect them? I don’t think you can. Those things sounds contradictory to me. And my guess is, they will sound contradictory to your LGBT neighbours too.

In the first place, we don’t categorize persons by their sexual orientations or acts. So we don’t “tell them” what the catechism says about sexuality. We treat each other as whole persons.

Most people don’t discuss personal sexuality with one another unless they are fairly close. I have two openly gay clients who have never once talked about their sexuality. Why would they?

Honestly, this idea that Catholics go looking for people to yell at is prejudice.

 

[jtav]

You mean, how can you tell them homosexuality is, as the Catechism says, intrinsically disordered and still respect them? I don’t think you can. Those things sounds contradictory to me. And my guess is, they will sound contradictory to your LGBT neighbours too.

No, I was thinking about small, practical things we could do to help them when they’re suffering without compromising our witness. I think homosexual acts are mortal sins; I also think beating someone up for being gay is a mortal sin and that minors shouldn’t be living on the street because their parents threw them out.

 

[goout]

Two of my hobbies (musical theatre and fandom) are disproportionately enjoyed by LGBT people. When I came back to the Church, I made it clear there were things I wouldn’t participate in and have explained Church teaching a couple of times.

But almost all of them have suffered unjust discrimination. Slurs, being left homeless, beatings, fired from secular jobs, etc. Some of them would turn your stomach. Things the Church justly condemns. So how can we order things so that the the truth about sexuality *and *their dignity as humans is upheld?

If their sexuality is not your business, don’t bring it up. You simply treat every human being as a child of God.

 

[Tagetes]

Two of my hobbies (musical theatre and fandom) are disproportionately enjoyed by LGBT people. When I came back to the Church, I made it clear there were things I wouldn’t participate in and have explained Church teaching a couple of times.

But almost all of them have suffered unjust discrimination. Slurs, being left homeless, beatings, fired from secular jobs, etc. Some of them would turn your stomach. Things the Church justly condemns. So how can we order things so that the the truth about sexuality *and *their dignity as humans is upheld?

Listen, if they are Christians, then either they are already celibate, or they made an informed choice not to be. This is a decision you may not approve of, but will have to respect.

If they are not Christians and have never been evangelized (kinda unlikely in the modern Western world, but for the sake of considering all options let’s suppose), then be an apostle and introduce them to Christ. But emphasize His divine love, not the horrors of Hell. People you’re talking about have already been there and back. Shower them with love and acceptance they have lacked thus far. Lifelong celibacy is a very hard path, and one needs a reason to commit to it. Out of love for loving God: some do. Out of fear that angry God will cast them into eternal fire: never heard of it.

If after your testimony they choose not to be Christians, leave them be. Pray for them, if their salvation really worries you. Make it clear that you are capable of a civil dialogue, that just because you disagree doesn’t mean you’re unwilling to help. And maybe, if your deeds speak volumes of Christian love and charity, some may take a closer look at Christ and accept Him. Then go to paragraph 1.

But at any point, to decide whether or not to remain chaste for God is up to them. Up to you is to prove this option viable and not to punish those, who chose differently, with your enmity.

 

[PassingSoul]

In the first place, we don’t categorize persons by their sexual orientations or acts. So we don’t “tell them” what the catechism says about sexuality. We treat each other as whole persons.

Most people don’t discuss personal sexuality with one another unless they are fairly close. I have two openly gay clients who have never once talked about their sexuality. Why would they?

Honestly, this idea that Catholics go looking for people to yell at is prejudice.

Well said

 

[mikekle]

Well, there is a big difference between being a gay person and acting on those feelings, or actually committing the sin, sure its fine if a person is homosexual, but its only wrong when they indulge and start a relationship. Personally I think God would prefer we make it known to them what sin they are committing and leave it at that, its up to them at that point to make a decision.

Back when I had some martial issues and was heading down a bad road with another female I had met, a couple friends warned me about the sin of adultery, but then it was up to me whether to go ahead and sin or put a stop to it. This caused some heat between us and friendships were tested, but in the end, I have more respect for them actually saying something versus just standing by.

Somehow I think its a bit too convenient in modern times for many christians to justify ‘doing nothing, saying nothing, attitude’, after all, its much easier for us, people only start hating us when we disagree about these things.

Jesus warned us ‘they will hate you as they hated me’…if we all just go along and justify everything the secular world does, and justify doing or saying nothing, I dont see how anyone would hate us for that…?

 

[jtav]

I think there’s some misunderstanding about what I’m asking. My policy is not to bring up LGBT issues unless asked directly, which led to two fairly civil debates. I’m asking about good ways to support them without giving scandal. It feels like every other week someone is begging for a place to stay because their parents threw them out or reminiscing about the time somebody threatened them with bodily harm or fretting they’ll lose their job if the boss finds out. (secular business not involved with weddings) All of which strike me as unjust. Are there good ways to help or advocate for them without giving scandal?

 

[Tagetes]

I think there’s some misunderstanding about what I’m asking. My policy is not to bring up LGBT issues unless asked directly, which led to two fairly civil debates. I’m asking about good ways to support them without giving scandal. It feels like every other week someone is begging for a place to stay because their parents threw them out or reminiscing about the time somebody threatened them with bodily harm or fretting they’ll lose their job if the boss finds out. (secular business not involved with weddings) All of which strike me as unjust. Are there good ways to help or advocate for them without giving scandal?

Can you, please, define “giving scandal”? It’s wonderful that it strikes you as unjust. Can’t count those whom it strikes as " had it coming". However, I fail to see what the scandal problem is.
Speaking against injustice is one of the ways to help as such, as you set an example. Could give temporary shelter to those who ask for a place. Donate to charities that take care of homeless LGBT youth (provided such charities exist where you live). Donate blood (people inside the community can’t). Make certain you’ll be a friend (friends often walk out when find out, so it matters a lot). And so forth.

 

[goout]

I think there’s some misunderstanding about what I’m asking. My policy is not to bring up LGBT issues unless asked directly, which led to two fairly civil debates. I’m asking about good ways to support them without giving scandal. It feels like every other week someone is begging for a place to stay because their parents threw them out or reminiscing about the time somebody threatened them with bodily harm or fretting they’ll lose their job if the boss finds out. (secular business not involved with weddings) All of which strike me as unjust. Are there good ways to help or advocate for them without giving scandal?

Just help them like any other human being.

Is it possible that by “scandal” you mean you are afraid what people will think of you for helping an outcast?
Don’t worry what people think of you.

 

[jtav]

Can you, please, define “giving scandal”? It’s wonderful that it strikes you as unjust. Can’t count those whom it strikes as " had it coming". However, I fail to see what the scandal problem is.
Speaking against injustice is one of the ways to help as such, as you set an example. Could give temporary shelter to those who ask for a place. Donate to charities that take care of homeless LGBT youth (provided such charities exist where you live). Donate blood (people inside the community can’t). Make certain you’ll be a friend (friends often walk out when find out, so it matters a lot). And so forth.

I worry about them thinking I’ve changed my mind on issues of gay marriage and similar particularly if I advocate others give to those charities. (I have a small internet platform and I’ve raised money for charity before).

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I believe that if you are in any way involved with these groups, people will assume you support everything the movement stands for. If you want to donate to those who have ended up on the street, do so. If you think you need to clarify your position and find an opportunity for that-do that as well. You might encounter not so civil responses from the activists, but that is a risk one takes when supporting a number of causes.

 

[Tagetes]

I worry about them thinking I’ve changed my mind on issues of gay marriage and similar particularly if I advocate others give to those charities. (I have a small internet platform and I’ve raised money for charity before).

My oh my. This is the only thing that stops you from helping?

The kid whose life you are going to save is not going to think “hey look, jtav helped me, must have changed attitude on gay marriage, yippie!”. They are going to think “oh, thank you, jtav, I have a roof over my head and dinner on my plate”. One didn’t have to convert to Judaism to help Jewish people during Holocaust, and I don’t remember the Good Samaritan specifying to the innkeeper “but, just for the record, I so don’t agree with that guy!” If somebody mistakenly claim that you changed your mind, you are always free to correct them. But what’s at stake is people’s lives vs. some wrong notion of you that strangers may or may not develop, and you even hesitate?

Not to mention that some of “them” are celibate practicing Catholics, but all these issues (fear of being disowned by parents, fear of being fired, death/injury threats) concern us as well.

 

[Lea101]

Well, I usually just support them in areas they need support (discrimination). And i make it clear that I’m a Catholic, a practicing one. I find that saying it out loud is just weird and we’re basically defining them by their sexual orientation, which is just weird to me. I usually just bring up religion once in a while (“i was at church last sunday and _____”, “oh my gosh i prayed for ___ and it actually came true”). This usually works with other people too, those who are sleeping around etc.

 

[goout]

I worry about them thinking I’ve changed my mind on issues of gay marriage and similar particularly if I advocate others give to those charities. (I have a small internet platform and I’ve raised money for charity before).

That is the cross.
If God presents you opportunities to help people you cannot worry about what others think of you.
I personally don’t go looking for those crosses, but they surely arise. What others think of you will fade away.
I am on our right to life committee and do some social marketing for it. I have gotten some hard stares from people who I do business with on account of taking an unpopular stand.

So be it.

 

[Lea101]

That is the cross.
If God presents you opportunities to help people you cannot worry about what others think of you.
I personally don’t go looking for those crosses, but they surely arise. What others think of you will fade away.
I am on our right to life committee and do some social marketing for it. I have gotten some hard stares from people who I do business with on account of taking an unpopular stand.

So be it.

Mm true. I wanted to include about how people probably thought Jesus condoned prostitution or adultery/etc when he openly loved them, but I feel like it will backfire. Lol

 

[on_the_hill]

You mean, how can you tell them homosexuality is, as the Catechism says, intrinsically disordered and still respect them?

The Church often uses words that have very exact meanings, and these words are often overwrought in everyday language. “Intrinsically disordered,” isn’t a value judgement. Its a categorization, a definition, a description.

Can you, please, define “giving scandal”? It’s wonderful that it strikes you as unjust. Can’t count those whom it strikes as " had it coming". However, I fail to see what the scandal problem is.

I don’t know the official definition of “giving scandal,” but on CAF it usually means a person has done/failed to do/said/failed to say “the right thing” and as such could lead someone else to sin.
“Joe sure spends a lot of time with that gay couple. Maybe that means Joe is a homosexual. I guess it’s o.k. for me to be a homosexual if Joe is.”

 

[Tagetes]

I don’t know the official definition of “giving scandal,” but on CAF it usually means a person has done/failed to do/said/failed to say “the right thing” and as such could lead someone else to sin.
“Joe sure spends a lot of time with that gay couple. Maybe that means Joe is a homosexual. I guess it’s o.k. for me to be a homosexual if Joe is.”

“Joe refused to take in a homeless kid for just a couple of days, whose parents kicked them out after having found out the kid fell for someone of their own sex. I guess, it’s ok to leave parents-betrayed homeless kids on the street, if Joe did.”

“Joe did nothing, when two older boys had beaten up a supposedly gay teen. I guess, it’s ok to beat up boys, if Joe just walked by.”

“Joe didn’t stand up for a co-worker, who was fired after being involuntarily outed as a lesbian. I guess, it’s ok to fire lesbians, if Joe doesn’t mind.”

And, please. Humbly asking as a person, who has been fighting unapproved attraction long enough to know it’s innate:

I guess it’s o.k. for me to be a homosexual if Joe is."

Just don’t. Ever.

 

[on_the_hill]

“Joe refused to take in a homeless kid for just a couple of days, whose parents kicked them out after having found out the kid fell for someone of their own sex. I guess, it’s ok to leave parents-betrayed homeless kids on the street, if Joe did.”

“Joe did nothing, when two older boys had beaten up a supposedly gay teen. I guess, it’s ok to beat up boys, if Joe just walked by.”

“Joe didn’t stand up for a co-worker, who was fired after being involuntarily outed as a lesbian. I guess, it’s ok to fire lesbians, if Joe doesn’t mind.”

And, please. Humbly asking as a person, who has been fighting unapproved attraction long enough to know it’s innate:

Just don’t. Ever.

I think you misunderstood, or maybe I wasn’t clear. I’m not saying that I *agree *with that interpretation of causing scandal, I’m saying that’s the predominant opinion.