Luke 18:9-14 and OSAS

[JRKH]

Catholic teaching simply doesn’t allow for certainty regarding ones salvation-it’s quite foreign, in fact, to our whole outlook on the gospel.

Someone should tell Catholics here at CAF.

I have read many threads where people state emphatically that all you have to do is go to confession and die in a state of grace and you will go to heaven. "Nothing else matters’ is the general thought.

Yes - I think that this is where things can get “sticky”.
By this I men we need to be clear about our definitions and our understandings.
As Catholics, we should be “certain” of our salvation in that we should have great confidence. However this “certainty” that we have is something quite different from the “guarantee” that the OSAS position preaches.

On a second note…It must always be recognized that “confession and die in a state of grace” requires repentance first. So - there is most definitely something else that matters a great deal.

My point is that I don’t think it generally true that OSAS leads to spiritual pride, they often think the same of us, and we certainly have our own issues with triumphalism.

-Tim-

This is maybe the best thing coming out of this little discussion.
As Catholic I want to say that the majority of Catholics I know are not at all “triumphal”.
The folks posting here are saying the same thing about their OSAS believing friends.
So perhaps the bottom line is that - while the majority (in each camp) may not be triumphal - some are.

I apologize if I have been the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

Someone should tell Catholics here at CAF.

I have read many threads where people state emphatically that all you have to do is go to confession and die in a state of grace and you will go to heaven. "Nothing else matters’ is the general thought. -

Yes, that mentality is misguided. But the the point is that, even then, there’s always an “if” for Catholics, not so for many Protestants. And that’s why Trent addressed this very issue in the way it did.

 

[Ignatius]

I don’t understand how they can believe that breaking this commandment without repentance could take them straight to Heaven.

Because It is a precept of OSAS theology that when they performed the prescribed works, 1) Ask Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior, 2) Make an alter call, and 3) says the Sinners Prayer; then they believe that all of their sins, passed, present and future are already forgiven and it doesn’t matter what they do.

Their theology simply doesn’t require them to live in imitation of Christ. It is counter to what the Gospel and all of Scripture actually says, but that is what they think it says.

 

[Nelka]

Regardless, many OSAS people would simply say that said murderer was “never saved to begin with.”

I hear this all the time, it seems like a get out clause for them not to listen.

Because It is a precept of OSAS theology that when they performed the prescribed works, 1) Ask Jesus into your heart as your personal Saviour, 2) Make an alter call, and 3) says the Sinners Prayer; then they believe that all of their sins, passed, present and future are already forgiven and it doesn’t matter what they do.

Their theology simply doesn’t require them to live in imitation of Christ. It is counter to what the Gospel and all of Scripture actually says, but that is what they think it says.

How do we break this wall down?

 

[TimothyH]

A lot of people on this thread are making very broad statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

Many here are making some pretty shallow assumptions about what Protestants believe about salvation, forgiveness and their desire to live lives of holiness - things like they believe that once they are saved it doesn’t matter what they do and are not required to live in imitation of Christ.

My best friend is an ordained Methodist Pastor with an MDiv from Emory University. I’m dating and hope to marry a Southern Baptist turned non-denominational. I’m telling you that some of you don’t know what you are talking about and are making assumptions about what non-Catholic Christians believe which are not always true, or are just making things up. I have never met a non-Catholic Christian who believes these things.

The ones doing this only prove that they do not have many Evangelical friends or acquaintances or that they have never discussed matters of faith with them.

-Tim-

 

[fhansen]

A lot of people on this thread are making very broad statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

Many here are making some pretty shallow assumptions about what Protestants believe about salvation, forgiveness and their desire to live lives of holiness - things like they believe that once they are saved it doesn’t matter what they do and are not required to live in imitation of Christ.

My best friend is an ordained Methodist Pastor with an MDiv from Emory University. I’m dating and hope to marry a Southern Baptist turned non-denominational. I’m telling you that some of you don’t know what you are talking about and are making assumptions about what non-Catholic Christians believe which are not always true, or are just making things up. I have never met a non-Catholic Christian who believes these things.

The ones doing this only prove that they do not have many Evangelical friends or acquaintances or that they have never discussed matters of faith with them.

-Tim-

I was an AOG member for many years and the smugness-with accompanying exclusivism-that I mention was alive and well there, expressed in various, sometimes subtle, ways. I also encounter it among Protestant apologists. OTOH, as I also mentioned, this does not include all Protestants, even if it’s seeds may well be embedded in their theology, depending on its variation, and it doesn’t totally exclude Catholics, even though it’s specifically excluded in Catholic theology. And you’re right, most Christians that I know of, especially from mainline Protestantism, live in fact as if their actions count throughout their lives, regardless of theology. But I think James’s point is valid, and worth exploring, as it points to errors in certain Protestant theologies that can and do manifest as a failure to walk in all the ways God would desire for us. We have enough trouble walking the path without poor or stunted information.

 

[dronald]

Their theology simply doesn’t require them to live in imitation of Christ. It is counter to what the Gospel and all of Scripture actually says, but that is what they think it says.

Very untrue. The majority of OSAS people believe that Christianity requires them to live in imitation of Christ.

 

[TxGodfollower]

I do not want to cause offense to any individual, but it occurred to me that in my experience, those who hold to OSAS can come off a bit like the pharisee in this passage. That holding this view can easily lead one to this kind of prayer:
`God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collecto
I’m sure that many see NOT to think this way…yet the principle of OSAS seems to lead this direction…

Or at least it does to me…

Any thoughts on this from the field?

Peace
James

I suppose it could lead to an arrogant perspective from viewing grace basically as invincibility, but the reverse could also be true. The view spoken of in that passage could easily be that of someone who thinks that they have to work to maintain their salvation and are better than the person who doesn’t do those works.

 

[Ignatius]

A lot of people on this thread are making very broad statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

Hi Tim,

No offense, but this is a problem of your own making. There really is no official, authoritative statement of anything that is true for “ALL Protestants”. The most that can ever be said is the a substantial number of Protestants believe such and such.
“All Protestants” can’t even agree on the definition of “Sola Fide” or even if they all believe in it. So, for example, until there is an official Protestant definition we will take that to mean Faith Alone, without anything else.

So, Until the Protestants come up with an official, authoritative definition that All Protestants adhere to, this will have to be the case.

Please be sure and let us know as soon as you all come up with an official, authoritative statement that All Protestants adhere to.

 

[Ignatius]

. . . . .OSAS people believe that Christianity requires them to live in imitation of Christ.

Not if all of your sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim,

No offense, but this is a problem of your own making. There really is no official, authoritative statement of anything that is true for “ALL Protestants”. The most that can ever be said is the a substantial number of Protestants believe such and such.
“All Protestants” can’t even agree on the definition of “Sola Fide” or even if they all believe in it. So, for example, until there is an official Protestant definition we will take that to mean Faith Alone, without anything else.

So, Until the Protestants come up with an official, authoritative definition that All Protestants adhere to, this will have to be the case.

Please be sure and let us know as soon as you all come up with an official, authoritative statement that All Protestants adhere to.

I live in the deep south and one of the things I learned from my many non-denominational, Evangelical and Baptist friends is not to call them Protestants. These are more likely to be OSAS folks and they would distance themselves from the Presbyterian or Methodist Church just as fast as they would from the Catholic Church.

Talk to them about Martin Luther or John Calvin and they will look at you like you have three heads and ask you why you are talking about a guy who has been dead for 500 years. “I’m not protesting anything” is the likely response.

We can throw the term Protestant around but the fact is that on a very practical level, as they are likely to tell you very quickly, Evangelicals are not Protestants. There is a huge difference in theology between mainline Protestants and Evangelical OSAS Christians. That’s all I’m trying to say.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

I live in the deep south and one of the things I learned from my many non-denominational, Evangelical and Baptist friends is not to call them Protestants. These are more likely to be OSAS folks and they would distance themselves from the Presbyterian or Methodist Church just as fast as they would from the Catholic Church.

Talk to them about Martin Luther or John Calvin and they will look at you like you have three heads and ask you why you are talking about a guy who has been dead for 500 years. “I’m not protesting anything” is the likely response.

We can throw the term Protestant around but the fact is that on a very practical level, as they are likely to tell you very quickly, Evangelicals are not Protestants. There is a huge difference in theology between mainline Protestants and Evangelical OSAS Christians. That’s all I’m trying to say.

-Tim-

Yes - I have run into this too. Protestant might be something of an outdated term given that the vast majority of people in these communities were raised in them, or converted into them from basically a “no-faith” situation. So in a very real sense they are not protesting anything…

Yet - like it or not - “protestant” is the most commonly understood term used to describe those faith communities that trace their roots back to the reformation. And this has to include those who wish to distance themselves from the term because the evangelicals, and the “non-denominational” takes as their foundation such reformation basics as “Sola Scriptura” and “Sola Fide”.

I would happily promote the use of another term that would serve as well as protestant does to describe these groups…but there doesn’t seem to be one.

Lastly - and as a bit of a side note - I think it’s humorous that you state that they are not protesting anything yet you also say that they would, “distance themselves from the Presbyterian or Methodist Church just as fast as they would from the Catholic Church”.
Sounds a bit “protest-y” to me…

Peace
James

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;12556273:

TimothyH;12554410:

A lot of people on this thread are making very broad statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

Hi Tim,

No offense, but this is a problem of your own making. There really is no official, authoritative statement of anything that is true for “ALL Protestants”. The most that can ever be said is the a substantial number of Protestants believe such and such.
“All Protestants” can’t even agree on the definition of “Sola Fide” or even if they all believe in it. So, for example, until there is an official Protestant definition we will take that to mean Faith Alone, without anything else.

So, Until the Protestants come up with an official, authoritative definition that All Protestants adhere to, this will have to be the case.

Please be sure and let us know as soon as you all come up with an official, authoritative statement that All Protestants adhere to.

I live in the deep south and one of the things I learned from my many non-denominational, Evangelical and Baptist friends is not to call them Protestants. These are more likely to be OSAS folks and they would distance themselves from the Presbyterian or Methodist Church just as fast as they would from the Catholic Church.

Talk to them about Martin Luther or John Calvin and they will look at you like you have three heads and ask you why you are talking about a guy who has been dead for 500 years. “I’m not protesting anything” is the likely response.

We can throw the term Protestant around but the fact is that on a very practical level, as they are likely to tell you very quickly, Evangelicals are not Protestants. There is a huge difference in theology between mainline Protestants and Evangelical OSAS Christians. That’s all I’m trying to say.

-Tim-

I understand, I live in the country where there are many a Klavern also and I am fully aware that they are no friend to Catholics but the Truth is the Truth.

Now if you check back in the thread you’ll see that it was in your post #24 (quoted above) that you posted "

statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

". So I was using the term (i.e. “Protestant”) that you were using.

I use the term Protestant to mean those in Christian denominations that were founded by men in the 16th century or those who broke off from them in subsequent centuries and formed other denominations including those denominations founded in the 20th Century that call themselves non-denominational and Evangelical.That’s a bit long-winded,
But in deference to your wishes I’ll reword it as follows.

A lot of people on this thread are making very broad statements about Evangelical theology which are not true for all Protestants.

No offense, but this is a problem of your own making. There really is no official, authoritative statement of anything that is true for “All Evangelicals, Non-Denominationals, Baptists and other OSAS believers”. The most that can ever be said is the a substantial number of “Evangelical, Non-Denominational, Baptist and other denominations that hold to OSAS” believe such and such.
“All Evangelicals, Non-Denominationals, Baptists and other OSAS believers” don’t even agree on the definition of “Sola Fide” or even if they all believe in it. So, for example, until there is an official authoritative definition we will take that to mean Faith Alone, without anything else.

So, Until these denominations, or non-denominations if you like, come up with an official, authoritative definition that they all adhere to, this will have to be the case.

This brings up a very interesting point. Today, there are 10s of thousands of recognized Christian denominations throughout the world. Given this situation, we realize one of the following must be true:

1. Jesus established more than one church
2. Jesus established one church, but it is an invisible, abstract, “spiritual” church in which all true believers, regardless of denomination, are members. In this church, either:
   (a) Doctrine does not matter, or
   (b) Conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable.
3. Jesus established one, visible church in which doctrine matters and does not conflict. This church contains the fullness of truth as revealed by God; all others have partial truth, at best.

Now, my friend, which is it?