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white_sheep
Guest
I had some misgivings about them at first, but I rest easy now in the fact that they have 2000 years of papal authority supporting them.
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PKinsale
Guest
I don’t think there is anything wrong with these variants dogmatically or devotionally, but to me the idea of three sets of five decades seems more poetic and economic. Putting the Luminous on Thursday and moving the Joyful from Thursday to Saturday does not seem to match the rhythm well. Glorious should always follow Sorrowful. Just a thought.
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DebChris
Guest
When the complete rosary of 20 decades is prayed, the Luminous comes between the Joyful and Sorrowful. This is the natural order of Christ’s life from infancy through ministry followed by His Passion and Resurrection. The Sorrowful mysteries naturally lead to the Glorious.
Will the currently recommended order for the weekdays be changed sometime in the future? A number of Saints, such as St. Francis, fasted on both Wednesday and Friday. A couple of years ago, I read an article that described how Jesus may actually have been arrested on Tuesday. It has to do with when the different sects of the time celebrated Passover, as well as the practical matter of our Lord being interrogated by Herod and the high priests. How much time did all this take? I was half through Lent last year before learning that in this Muslim dominated part of the world, Wednesday is actually the day set aside for fast and abstinence rather than Friday. It feels a bit awkward fasting while simultaneously celebrating the Glorious Mysteries.
So, I do understand your position. It was one of the reasons I asked in an earlier post about the Rosary of the Sacred Wounds. The answering link provided does have the accompanying meditations that seem familiar. For those of us to whom the rosary has been a lifelong prayer, the new Mysteries change a familiar pattern or rhythm. There is nothing to keep any of us from substituting the Franciscan rosary or other devotion for the most common five decade version. Paraphrasing the words of Louis de Montfort in his introductory prayer, with the rosary we praise Jesus Christ in and through His mother.
I pray the Little Crown of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion I learned about while reading True Devotion, after Lauds. Vespers already includes the Magnificat and a Marian prayer follows Compline.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
First of all, I love your inspiring post and I too am a Montfort devotee! Good for you!
The fasts on Wednesdays and Fridays were, in fact, the original weekly fast-days of the universal Catholic Church. The Eastern Churches still observe both days as fast-days. Wednesday is a fast day since it was on the fourth day of the week that Judas went to the Elders to offer to betray Jesus. Thus, Wednesday is the beginning of our Lord’s Passion.
Friday, of course, is the culmination of our Lord’s Passion and in the Byzantine tradition, the daily services of Wednesday and Friday are identical, both celebrating the Cross and Passion of our Lord. Also, the fast prescribed on Wednesdays and Fridays is actually listed by the Apostles themselves in their Apostolic Canons from the early days of the Church. The postscript to this entry is, “Because our Lord told us to fast like this.” I don’t have a copy of these Canons handy, but am sure they are online. They are why the Eastern Church continues to fast on both days.
Also, when the Apparitions at Medjugorje also instructed the children to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays and people in that area continue to do so today.
Fasting on Saturdays and Sundays is actually prohibited by the early church canons and the local Church of Rome as such was criticized for having changed the ancient tradition in this respect by allowing for Saturday fasting (Western Lent calculates all Saturdays of Lent as fast-days - something that would be unthinkable - and uncanonical - in the East).
The best way to pray the Rosary, according to Montfort, is to simply say it in its entirety daily - that will also solve the problem of which sets of Mysteries to pray on which day!
Blessings!
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
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GloriousOrder
Guest
I believe many traditionalists refuse to pray the new mysteries simply because these additions interrupt the drama of history. This is a very grand topic indeed, and must go into many different subjects. It is not that I want to make up analogies to justify my traditionalism, but use human examples to show why the rosary is better in 3 than in 4.
The traditional Rosary blessed by our Lady for so many centuries mirrors the operatic style, the sonata form, and the novel. In human history, so much is based on three parts. As many acts as there may be in modern opera, the usual is three: introduction-tension-resolution. Act I invariably introduces the characters, Act II consistently puts them at odds, and Act III always pulls the conflict together to form a grand finale. In the classical musical sonata, it is the Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation sections that serve exactly the same purpose! All novels and great epics have an opening journey, a fall into darkness, and a glorious rising out of defeat to a greater height than it had started with.
To change the Rosary to have four parts instead of three upsets our gut feeling about life, expressed for centuries in music and literature. In the "true’ mysteries of the Rosary, you have introduction, tension, and conclusion. Here, we have: joyful, sorrowful, and glorious. A beautiful evening descends from the clouds, out of the mists of time. Orange skies range over Israel as a young virgin woman perhaps carries a laundry basket to the wash basin outside a sun-dried home. Suddenly, a wondrous being appears to interrupt the tranquil peeping of summer birds, and says those blessed words which echo and re-echo throughout history. Many years later, all things fall into place - suffering is suffered, and life is unlived… then, our blessed Lord rises! All is golden light; all is shining victory. Adding the Luminous Mysteries make it somewhat less luminous, this three-part drama-opera, concocted by God to save us all.
All that is not to say that the Rosary is merely manufactured by men wishing to imprint human order on things! Really, it’s a sign of the natural order of the universe. We, being spiritual beings, see intro-tension-conclusion naturally. God made us this way because that’s the way things are in His creation. What a beautiful joy it is to have this sense in life, this sense of progression and meaning. The Fourth Mystery is like listening to a dramatic, explosive piano sonata which seems to be rushing toward dark tragedy, and which will eventually end in glorious triumph… and suddenly there’s a waltz right in the middle of it. It’s out-of-place and rather silly.
The traditional Rosary blessed by our Lady for so many centuries mirrors the operatic style, the sonata form, and the novel. In human history, so much is based on three parts.
As many acts as there may be in modern opera, the usual is three: introduction-tension-resolution. Act I invariably introduces the characters, Act II consistently puts them at odds, and Act III always pulls the conflict together to form a grand finale. In the classical musical sonata, it is the Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation sections that serve exactly the same purpose! All novels and great epics have an opening journey, a fall into darkness, and a glorious rising out of defeat to a greater height than it had started with.To change the Rosary to have four parts instead of three upsets our gut feeling about life, expressed for centuries in music and literature. In the "true’ mysteries of the Rosary, you have introduction, tension, and conclusion. Here, we have: joyful, sorrowful, and glorious. A beautiful evening descends from the clouds, out of the mists of time. Orange skies range over Israel as a young virgin woman perhaps carries a laundry basket to the wash basin outside a sun-dried home. Suddenly, a wondrous being appears to interrupt the tranquil peeping of summer birds, and says those blessed words which echo and re-echo throughout history. Many years later, all things fall into place - suffering is suffered, and life is unlived… then, our blessed Lord rises! All is golden light; all is shining victory. Adding the Luminous Mysteries make it somewhat less luminous, this three-part drama-opera, concocted by God to save us all.
All that is not to say that the Rosary is merely manufactured by men wishing to imprint human order on things! Really, it’s a sign of the natural order of the universe. We, being spiritual beings, see intro-tension-conclusion naturally. God made us this way because that’s the way things are in His creation. What a beautiful joy it is to have this sense in life, this sense of progression and meaning. The Fourth Mystery is like listening to a dramatic, explosive piano sonata which seems to be rushing toward dark tragedy, and which will eventually end in glorious triumph… and suddenly there’s a waltz right in the middle of it. It’s out-of-place and rather silly.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
The Rosary in the Eastern Church has had at least three of the Luminous Mysteries for quite some time (the Eastern Rosary, although in 15 decades, has only one “Sorrowful Mystery” that of our Lady under the Cross of Christ and is actually much MORE focused on the life of our Lady than the Latin Rosary).
The Luminous Mysteries fill in a “gap” between our Lord’s Childhood and His Passion.The Mysteries of our Lord’s Baptism in the Jordan and His Transfiguration reveal the fullness of the Holy Trinity to us. His Ministry was based on His miracles and teaching - both celebrated in the Mysteries of the Wedding at Cana and the third Luminous Mystery.
And the Last Supper leads one into the Passion as it celebrates the Most Holy Eucharist.
The change is a most positive one and let’s remember that when Pope St Pius V canonized the form of the Latin Hail Mary, he was himself imposing a form of it that not all Catholics used at the time, and he also established a form of the Rosary that was likewise not universal at the time.
The Rosary of Bl. John Paul II is easy to fulfill daily if the Joyful Mysteries are prayed first thing in the morning, the Luminous Mysteries at noon over the lunch-hour, the Sorrowful Mysteries at 3:00 pm (together with the Divine Mercy Chaplet - a very appropriate time of day to pray and meditate on the Passion of Christ) and then the Glorious Mysteries at six or in the evening.
My appreciation for the Rosary has deepened as a result of the teaching and example of Bl. Pope John Paul, who was very, very devoted to the Most Holy Mother of God and gave this witness to the West at a time when that critically important devotion appeared on the wane. He was a true son of St Louis de Montfort (and I’ve heard many Latin Catholics deride Montfort and his True Devotion to Mary) and he even wished to declare Montfort a Doctor of the Church. Montfort himself preached the recitation of more than 20 decades of the rosary daily (that is in his True Devotion where he recommends a further Rosary of “six or seven decades in honour of the years you believe our Lady lived on earth”).
With any change, there comes a period of adjustment. It is an adjustment for the better and is entirely in keeping with the best tradition of the Marian devotion of the holy Roman Catholic Church. And we are obliged, as Catholics, to think with the Mind of the Church, especially as expressed through the Vicar of Christ. I don’t see a problem - only a challenge to be met.
All the Traditionalist RC’s I know say the daily 20 decades and they always ask me if I keep to that regimen myself.
I always respond with, “Yeah, man - what dy’a think?”
Alex
The Luminous Mysteries fill in a “gap” between our Lord’s Childhood and His Passion.The Mysteries of our Lord’s Baptism in the Jordan and His Transfiguration reveal the fullness of the Holy Trinity to us. His Ministry was based on His miracles and teaching - both celebrated in the Mysteries of the Wedding at Cana and the third Luminous Mystery.
And the Last Supper leads one into the Passion as it celebrates the Most Holy Eucharist.
The change is a most positive one and let’s remember that when Pope St Pius V canonized the form of the Latin Hail Mary, he was himself imposing a form of it that not all Catholics used at the time, and he also established a form of the Rosary that was likewise not universal at the time.
The Rosary of Bl. John Paul II is easy to fulfill daily if the Joyful Mysteries are prayed first thing in the morning, the Luminous Mysteries at noon over the lunch-hour, the Sorrowful Mysteries at 3:00 pm (together with the Divine Mercy Chaplet - a very appropriate time of day to pray and meditate on the Passion of Christ) and then the Glorious Mysteries at six or in the evening.
My appreciation for the Rosary has deepened as a result of the teaching and example of Bl. Pope John Paul, who was very, very devoted to the Most Holy Mother of God and gave this witness to the West at a time when that critically important devotion appeared on the wane. He was a true son of St Louis de Montfort (and I’ve heard many Latin Catholics deride Montfort and his True Devotion to Mary) and he even wished to declare Montfort a Doctor of the Church. Montfort himself preached the recitation of more than 20 decades of the rosary daily (that is in his True Devotion where he recommends a further Rosary of “six or seven decades in honour of the years you believe our Lady lived on earth”).
With any change, there comes a period of adjustment. It is an adjustment for the better and is entirely in keeping with the best tradition of the Marian devotion of the holy Roman Catholic Church. And we are obliged, as Catholics, to think with the Mind of the Church, especially as expressed through the Vicar of Christ. I don’t see a problem - only a challenge to be met.
All the Traditionalist RC’s I know say the daily 20 decades and they always ask me if I keep to that regimen myself.
I always respond with, “Yeah, man - what dy’a think?”
Alex
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DebChris
Guest
Alex,
I just want to make one correction to your earlier post. It is Fridays,not Saturday, that is the obligatory day of fast during Lent in the Western tradition. In the Muslim country where I work, it is Wednesday, not Friday. And yes, as you have mentioned, historically it is both Wednesday and Friday. I have never heard of Saturday as a day of fast.
If Christmas should fall on a Friday, as St. Francis replied to one of his followers, the celebration of Christmas overrides the fast. It is a day of feasting.
I just want to make one correction to your earlier post. It is Fridays,not Saturday, that is the obligatory day of fast during Lent in the Western tradition. In the Muslim country where I work, it is Wednesday, not Friday. And yes, as you have mentioned, historically it is both Wednesday and Friday. I have never heard of Saturday as a day of fast.
If Christmas should fall on a Friday, as St. Francis replied to one of his followers, the celebration of Christmas overrides the fast. It is a day of feasting.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Yes - I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. It is just that the Wednesday fast in the West was moved to Saturday.
Salaam Alekum!
Alex
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DebChris
Guest
I have never been aware of any Saturday fast, or a time in which the Church in the West has asked its members to fast for 2 straight days. I am not overlooking the more stringent 40 day Lenten observation of the past.
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georgewithfaith
Guest
I am impressed that you have kept at your rosary devotion for some 65 years! That is fantastic.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
I’ve always found it interesting how those that are for the Luminious Mysteries get very pushy and almost violent towards those that do not pray it. Yes add it to the list of my bad experiences as a Catholic heh.
It’s just amazing, a Pope adds an option that changes an old tradition and people go nuts trying t make it a requirement and force it on others.
If the Catholic religion is correct then the devil must love all the fighting, hate and so on that has come to be centered around the rosary of late.
It’s just amazing, a Pope adds an option that changes an old tradition and people go nuts trying t make it a requirement and force it on others.
If the Catholic religion is correct then the devil must love all the fighting, hate and so on that has come to be centered around the rosary of late.
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
As I recall we were required to fast on Wednesday, Friday and Saturday for the Ember Days, four times a year. I don’t remember when they were abolished, but remember that they were frequently forgotten.
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PJM
Guest
***May I add a thought or two?
While an interestering topic for debate, the Mysteries simply recall in an orderly manner the “Life of Christ.,” From Birth until Death for our benefit.
The concept is to both teach us about Christ time on Earth, and to keep this TRUE mystery before us, ever present to allow us to stay connected to God and the incomprehenible Love of becomming both man and God, to TEACH us, to allow us to KNOW God’s love for us, on a very personal basis, and of course to Redeem us.
Christ Birth, Life and Death allow us to know in a manner that our forefathers could never invision, the depth of God’s love for us, and the degree that God desires to be in a PERSONAL relationship with us. This knowledge represents God’s desire for humanity to
have NO EXCUSE to not freely choose to Know, Love and Serve Him in humble and complete Obedience.
**Mark.4: 24-25 ***" And he said to them, “Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”
We Catholics are most assuredly in the “given more” group.
By praying the Rosary often, we are able to stay connected to the humanity of Christ, and marvel at HIS HUMILITY, and remain mindful of the fact that He did all of these things in order to demonistrate His love for us. We are reminded by the Mysteries of our obligation to return love for Love. Sacrifie for sacrifice.
Each account is a true MYSTERY, and prmits us to in a sense “Get past the awesomeness” of God, and to actually desire and develope a personal relationship with Christ, whom we are able to know and LOVE through our knowledge of Him on earth; both a s God and as a man.
The Rosary is for OUR benefit, not God’s.
God Bles,
Pat**
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johnr55
Guest
Join in out of charity? What gall!
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Zacdecat
Guest
The Church’s tradition has been misunderstood in that it is meant to be timeless rather than fashionable. I was at dinner the other night where the guest of honour was one of the priests and he pulled out a book he had borrowed. It was four hundred years old and in good condition. It was readable because it was in Latin. This really struck me.
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laszlo
Guest
As for the analogy with the classical drama : introduction - tension - catharsis the tension part is not the passive torment and death of Jesus, but what prepared it: his teaching, which rejected the expectations of the Jewish establishment.
I think more of the Rosary as the story of Jesus life, and from this point of view I would add to the mysteries:
I think more of the Rosary as the story of Jesus life, and from this point of view I would add to the mysteries:
- the visitation of the Magi (as the role of the gentiles)
- the flee to Egypt
- the selection of the Apostles
- the Establishment of the hierarchy
- the death of the cross
- the burial of His body
- His presence in the Church which is His mystical Body
- His coming as Judge
- creation of the World
- original Sin
- Proto Evangelium (Gen 3:15)
- Selection of Abraham
- Mozes and the exodus
- David and the kingdom of Israel
- Captivity and return
The traditional Rosary blessed by our Lady for so many centuries mirrors the operatic style, the sonata form, and the novel. In human history, so much is based on three parts.
To change the Rosary to have four parts instead of three upsets our gut feeling about life, expressed for centuries in music and literature. In the "true’ mysteries of the Rosary, you have introduction, tension, and conclusion. Here, we have: joyful, sorrowful, and glorious. A beautiful evening descends from the clouds, out of the mists of time. Orange skies range over Israel as a young virgin woman perhaps carries a laundry basket to the wash basin outside a sun-dried home. Suddenly, a wondrous being appears to interrupt the tranquil peeping of summer birds, and says those blessed words which echo and re-echo throughout history. Many years later, all things fall into place - suffering is suffered, and life is unlived… then, our blessed Lord rises! All is golden light; all is shining victory. Adding the Luminous Mysteries make it somewhat less luminous, this three-part drama-opera, concocted by God to save us all.
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UnusVeritas
Guest
Some people refuse to say them because they don’t believe Pope John Paul II to have been the pope. (Sedevacantists)
Others simply don’t like the change. They view it, while not inherently wrong, as just a change of tradition, and it was good enough in the first place.
Personally, I do like the idea of the mysteries changing with the liturgical year in the old system of mysteries. At the same time, I like the idea of having some of Christ’s public life filled in, especially the Last Supper.
Others simply don’t like the change. They view it, while not inherently wrong, as just a change of tradition, and it was good enough in the first place.
Personally, I do like the idea of the mysteries changing with the liturgical year in the old system of mysteries. At the same time, I like the idea of having some of Christ’s public life filled in, especially the Last Supper.
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