Luther permitted premarital sex between engaged couples.

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So Much of what Luther said is taken out of context. He proved his point by makeing statements that got people attention. Luther was sent by God to clean up the coruption in the Catholic church

STM that last sentence is true.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is this coming from the same man who criticized (although that’s an understatement) JPII for his ecumenism?

Yes - and it is possible to be distinctly unimpressed by the Assisi abomination & JP2’s ecumenising generally while agreeing heartily with the OP ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Actually there are 3 sides to every story. His side, her side and then the truth. The RCC is the truth. That was promised to us by Jesus.

The RCC is not anything of the kind - or if it is, why not call it Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, Lord & God while you’re about it ​

Because that is where this heaping of divine titles upon a sinning, sinful, weak, frail, needy, created, limited, ignorant, poor, blind, mortal, beggarly human body such as a Church leads. A Church which mistakes itself for Christ is a danger to its members - people need to have their pride humbled, not fed and inflated - and how can the Church help them die to self, daily, if it is fulkl of the disease of which they need to be cured ? THe more the Church imagines itself to be Christ, the more sick & deluded it proves itself to be - just as with any of us

 

[rinnie]

The RCC is not anything of the kind - or if it is, why not call it Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, Lord & God while you’re about it ​

Because that is where this heaping of divine titles upon a sinning, sinful, weak, frail, needy, created, limited, ignorant, poor, blind, mortal, beggarly human body such as a Church leads. A Church which mistakes itself for Christ is a danger to its members - people need to have their pride humbled, not fed and inflated - and how can the Church help them die to self, daily, if it is fulkl of the disease of which they need to be cured ? THe more the Church imagines itself to be Christ, the more sick & deluded it proves itself to be - just as with any of us

Speak for yourself there bog. And let the CHurch speak for itself. The RCC is the fullness of the truth. I agree that you are not. The RCC teaches nothing but the word of God, You cannot separate God from his word, and the church has never done that. They indeed keep the truth the way Jesus commanded it to!

So please do not speak for the church for you have never been given authority from above to do so. And let the chosen people God picked to speak for him and his church the way he wanted it to be.

By the way the I see the Church as the pillar of the truth, as it is. Frail, weak, sinful not my Church. In my Church Jesus Christ is the eucharist and he is nothing as you describe. IT is Jesus Christ in the eucharist that feeds my soul so it does not become as you speak of. This is my body which has been given up for you whover eats this bread of life gains eternal life. Yeah thats what I’m talking about:extrahappy:

 

[rinnie]

St. Basil’s words do not prove immorality - only that such a person should not so act. Why not ? Because of being a reader, or because such conduct is completely ewrong for a Christian ? The quotation leaves us in the dark. So far as the words go there is nothing to show that what he rejects is wrong if done by others, such as laymen, do it.​

An analogy: Latin-Rite clerics are not allowed to marry - but it would be very rash to suppose therefore that the prohibition means no-one else is allowed to either. So too this canon may be forbidding something only to some in the Church at Caesarea, and not to all. Besides, the canons of one Church are not for all the Churches - so what did the other Churches rule ? What was forbidden at Caesarea in the fourth century, was not necessarily forbidden in fourth-century Rome or fourth-century anywhere else; & it is an absurd assumption to imagine that 16th-century German Christians were bound by marriage laws made for clerics in fourth-century Caesarea, or anywhere else. Such an assumption needs to be proved, not taken for granted. Why should Luther, or anyone of his time, care what had been decreed for clerics in fourth-century Caesarea ?

Who are you to question who God calls and to what rite he chooses for them. If a Priest is called to the Roman Rite and answers that call that came from God and sacrifices his life to live for Christ who are you to judge him? What gives you the right to say that a Priest should have to marry?

Just like St Paul was called to not marry so are RC Priests. Everyone in this world has free will. All God will do is ask of us what he wants. ITs up for us to answer. What is it about you that you feel gives you the right to judge that calling, and judge that rite of the Catholic faith? And judge that Priest for giving up his life to serve only Christ?

 

[PJM]

=Gottle of Geer;5695752]## The RCC is not anything of the kind - or if it is, why not call it Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, Lord & God while you’re about it

Because that is where this heaping of divine titles upon a sinning, sinful, weak, frail, needy, created, limited, ignorant, poor, blind, mortal, beggarly human body such as a Church leads. A Church which mistakes itself for Christ is a danger to its members - people need to have their pride humbled, not fed and inflated - and how can the Church help them die to self, daily, if it is fulkl of the disease of which they need to be cured ? THe more the Church imagines itself to be Christ, the more sick & deluded it proves itself to be - just as with any of us

*The CC is not usurping any authority not given to it by Christ Himself. Is one to listen to Luther or to God [because clearly they are not in agreement.}

In addition to that pesky Mt, 16;15-19 there is this:thumbsup:

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

And this:1 Tim. 3:15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, [singular] the pillar [singular] and bulwark of the truth. [singular] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion:”

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter,[singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.[singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord,[One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

And this:*2 Cor. 13: “8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.”

Gal. 2: “5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.”

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. God did this for no other than His CC:thumbsup:**

 

[rinnie]

I see it the easy way also. First there was Jesus, he left us the Church. Then came luther he left the Church the CHurch did not leave Luther.

How could Luther possibly be right and Jesus possibly be wrong? Now if Luther was here first and then came the Church? I may have to say I could have possibly followed luther. But Jesus left me the Church not Luther:shrug: