Lutheran Eucharist

[sjs]

I have studied Catholicism for some time now and feel a very strong pull in that direction. One of my dilemmas is the Eucharist. Coming from a Lutheran background I have always believed that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist, this is where my difficulty lies. I have no objections to the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist; in fact I have found the depth of the Catholic view to be very refreshing. However, the Catholic rejects the validity of the Lutheran Mass. To become a Catholic is to say that what I have received and venerated as Christ was merely bread and wine, this would make me into a monstrous idolater. It is in some ways quite ironic to have become to doubt the Eucharist, as celebrated by Protestants, due to sympathy with a Catholic understanding of the church. It’s so difficult because I long for the Eucharist yet I’m not quite ready to make the jump. In the meantime, I find the Catholic mass to be awkward and the Lutheran mass to be filled with doubts. Any insight or comments especially from converts from churches with a high Eucharistic view would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Alexius]

Hi ! Welcome to CAF!

Sorry, can’t help you here. I come from a non-liturgical background…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[awalt]

The basis of the Catholic belief about the Lutheran Eucharist is based on the fact that when Luther left the Church there was no apostolic succession, as he was not a bishop. That means the priesst that celbrate the Lutheran Mass are not duly ordained hence there is no consecration.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Sis,

I was aware that some Protestants do fully believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, but I wasn’t positive which denominations hold that belief. There are only a very few. Please don’t be upset with the answers you may receive here, as not many Catholics are aware of this. There is no reason to discuss other faiths during our liturgies, so how would they know?

You understand in your heart what you believe, so don’t feel as though you are an idolator. Have you pondered the scripture in Acts 10 where God sent St. Peter to Cornelius to bring him into the faith? Cornelius was a righteous man, beloved by God, and Peter came to recognize in verse 34: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

Peter felt that it was never permissible to associate with those who were not Jewish, and it took a vision from God three times to show him his error. Rest peacefully in the love that God has for you, and the desire to lead you into His Church.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Dear Sis,

I was aware that some Protestants do fully believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, but I wasn’t positive which denominations hold that belief. There are only a very few. Please don’t be upset with the answers you may receive here, as not many Catholics are aware of this. There is no reason to discuss other faiths during our liturgies, so how would they know?

Anglo-Catholics, a group of traditional Anglicans, actually believe in transubstantiation (the Roman Catholic teaching) and have benediction. Sjs, the Catholic church tries to be eccumenical, and unfortunatley this is something that is beyond our control. When a bishop lays hands on men and changes the words or the intention, meaning if he doesn’t mention the man offering the sacrifice of the Mass, then no sacrament takes place. There is not ordination, this is what happened with the Church of England unfortunatley. Although we do not recognize the Eucharist within Protestant denominations we do recognize the Euchariast within: the SSPX, the Sedevacanists, the Polish National Church, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. These groups did not change their ordination rites, so although they are not in union with us, they still have valide sacraments.

Don’t try to think so negatively about you years of attending a Lutheran Mass, consider it preparation. We do have some converts from Anglo-Catholicism here on the forums. It was very difficult for them to join the Catholic Church, especially since they complain about how much more reverent the Anglo-Catholic Mass is compared to the majority of Masses celebrated in our parishes…

 

[decn2b]

Lutherans believe in consubstantiation. Consubstatiation is the belief that jesus AND bread are present. THis belief reduces the understanding to Christ being stuck inside of a wafer. This belief comes from Luther. Being an someone who understands matter and accidents. We must assume that the wafer is either Jesus body blood soul and divinity (glorified) Or a piece of bread. COnsubstatiaion is an oxymoron. The only way consubstatiation works is if some of the particles are unleavened bread and some were Jesus. The can of worms (no pun intended) is then opened to which pieces are Jesus and which are bread. Then the question arises as to why some parts are Christ and others are not.

Christians beleive that we are made anew in Chirst. Lutherans believe this too. THis belief in being made new in christ.

When a sinner decides to follow the Lord. Lutherans believe that the person is made anew. They are transformed IN CHRIST. However even though they are made NEW in Christ their body still looks exactly the same, their hair, eyes, bones, skin, and molecules are exactly the same but TRANSformed in Christ. SImilar to the EUcharist. The bread is Transformed into a new substance.

Here is some simple advice on the matter. Either the Catholic Church is the true Church or Not…If it is then you really have no options.

 

[sjs]

While it appears that Luther himself preferred consubstantiation, the idea that all Lutherans believe in consubstantiation is a misnomer. Many Lutherans tend to believe in the doctrine of the Sacramental Union. What is rejected in this belief is the notion of a metaphysical determination of how the Eucharist works. This does not reject either consubstantiation or transubstantiation; it rejects the dogmatizing of either. I myself have no issue with the Catholic view of transubstantiation. I have never found such a doctrine to be particularly helpful, but I am willing to submit to Catholic authority on the issue.

 

[sjs]

I guess the hardest thing for me is that to accept the Catholic conception of the necessity of the bishopric, which I do, is to come to the conclusion that Christ has never been present to me in the Eucharist. This is difficult precisely because I must accept that Christ has in a sense abandoned me. When I sought him out he was not there, what I honored as God was dust, the grace I received is suspect and yet I know I received it. This is what I cannot reconcile.

 

[JustDave]

He has not abandoned you, he is calling you home.

 

[teachccd]

I guess the hardest thing for me is that to accept the Catholic conception of the necessity of the bishopric, which I do, is to come to the conclusion that Christ has never been present to me in the Eucharist. This is difficult precisely because I must accept that Christ has in a sense abandoned me. When I sought him out he was not there, what I honored as God was dust, the grace I received is suspect and yet I know I received it. This is what I cannot reconcile.

Oh my this is an eye opener. What I am about to offer is my own humble opinion coming from my understanding of an all-loving and merciful God. Every person in this world comes to know God through revelation. This revelation is administered through many ways. I call this the journey of life and we all enter it at birth. While God calls us to truth, which in essence is Himself, we must discern through an array of external elements leading us to Him. In your particular journey your road included a stay in the Lutheran Church. Your heart was set to know God in the best way that you could and through the best external elements available to you at that time. When you went up to receive the Eucharist your heart was fully geared to receiving the real presence of Christ. While as a Roman Catholic I recognize that the Lutherans do not have a valid Eucharist due to an invalid priesthood. But that does not undermine your personal intent to receive our Lord in the Eucharist. This is definitely NOT idolatry because your full intention was to worship Christ NOT the bread.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that your reception of the Eucharist in the Lutheran church was your journey to receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. This should not be looked at as detrimental but as a growng awareness of the true Church that Jesus founded. When you went up to receive, you did encounter Christ. You seeked, you searched and you found Him. The Eucharist in your Lutheran denomination was the door to the Real Presence in the Catholic Church where Jesus said the first Mass.

That door was nothing less than Jesus Himself. Now open the door and enter. God Bless

 

[Jerry_Parker]

No Christian really should be satisfied to live with the ambiguity about the validity of the sacrament of Holy Communion (the Eucharist, Mass) as a Lutheran who confronts honestly Catholic negation of Lutheran Eucharistic worship. I sometimes wonder, though, as a convert from Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism, if one cannot “leave this up to God”, i.e. even if the Lutheran Holy Communion and Lutheran ministerial orders’ vallidity do not meet some criteria of recognition by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, even those of some Anglicans (who have their own problems of a near-Lutheran order regarding the validity of Anglican orders and sacraments), that God may deign to work through the Lutheran Eucharist anyway. I was not able to live with that kind of doubt myself, but perhaps other Lutherans do, whether they should or not.

Lutheran eucharistic theology is so wholesome, so basically sound, even if some Lutheran groups (not most, thankfully) flirt dangerously with Receptionist ideas! Those Protestants who adhere to one form or another of Receptionism distance themselves just that much further from orthodoxy on the matter of the Real Presence, even the Protestant Reformed Churches in American denomination, which (by “Calvinist”, really, in its case, Bucerian standards) have an unusually high view of the Real Presence, receptionist though it be, of Christ’s Presence and His and the Holy Ghost’s work by means of the Holy Communion. I am not about to say that conceiving of some exception for Lutheran and “Anglo-Catholic” Anglican Eucharistic concepts can apply really any further than that. Less than the teaching of Martin Bucer’s Real Presence Receptionism, to recognise some kind of validity in the euchristic manoeuvres of lesser kinds of Protestants, or even of the sects (Baptist, Pentecostal, Cambellite,etc.), whose views are that the Holy Communion has no meaning beyond that of a bare memorial, becomes simply too tenuous to approve in even the most contingent manner.

So, how about it? Can one let Lutherans “off the hook” in an hope that somehow, some way, God works through the Lutheran eucharist? Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[1ke]

To become a Catholic is to say that what I have received and venerated as Christ was merely bread and wine, this would make me into a monstrous idolater.

No. It doesn’t.

You were not worshipping a piece of bread, that was not your intent that was not your goal. You were worshipping Christ. You were taught, and you believed, that Christ was *present *in the Lutheran eucharist. Even though he was not present as he is in the Catholic Eucharist, he was still present to you spiritually. You were acting faithfully with the knowledge you had. God knows this.

Any insight or comments especially from converts from churches with a high Eucharistic view would be greatly appreciated.

I came from a high church Episcopalian upbringing. I converted in 1992. So, yes, I grew up believing in the Real Presence and receiving communion every week in the EC since 8th grade. When I learned the fullness of truth, I never gave this any thought. My viewpoint was that God knew my heart, knew my goal was to please him in all things, and that was that.

I guess it was just a logical part of having the truth regarding the priesthood and sacraments revealed in Catholic teaching.

 

[1ke]

I guess the hardest thing for me is that to accept the Catholic conception of the necessity of the bishopric, which I do, is to come to the conclusion that Christ has never been present to me in the Eucharist. This is difficult precisely because I must accept that Christ has in a sense abandoned me. When I sought him out he was not there, what I honored as God was dust, the grace I received is suspect and yet I know I received it. This is what I cannot reconcile.

How do you know that Christ was not present to you?

He was not present to you by any action of the Lutheran minister. But, Christ was really present to you spiritually by virtue of your own faith. Was he present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity? Not by any act of the Lutheran minister. Can we say, definitively, that He could not have manifested himself to you in an extraordinary way? No, we can’t.

This is purely speculative on my part. It’s not an attempt to make you feel better, but an attempt to point out that God is not bound by his sacraments when it comes to grace. The Sacraments are the ordinary way we receive grace, but not the only way.

 

[workingman]

I have studied Catholicism for some time now and feel a very strong pull in that direction. One of my dilemmas is the Eucharist. Coming from a Lutheran background I have always believed that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist, this is where my difficulty lies. I have no objections to the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist; in fact I have found the depth of the Catholic view to be very refreshing. However, the Catholic rejects the validity of the Lutheran Mass. To become a Catholic is to say that what I have received and venerated as Christ was merely bread and wine, this would make me into a monstrous idolater. It is in some ways quite ironic to have become to doubt the Eucharist, as celebrated by Protestants, due to sympathy with a Catholic understanding of the church. It’s so difficult because I long for the Eucharist yet I’m not quite ready to make the jump. In the meantime, I find the Catholic mass to be awkward and the Lutheran mass to be filled with doubts. Any insight or comments especially from converts from churches with a high Eucharistic view would be greatly appreciated.

I also converted from a Lutheran background (LCMS). I was received into the CC this past Easter. I believed at that time that Lutherans have the true presence. The CC states they don’t for they do not have a valid priest hood. God knows your heart and what you truly do believe. This does not make you a idolater. Ironically this was one of my biggest problems I had in the Lutheran Church was what appeared to me to be a complete lack of reverence for the Eucharist.

The fact you study Catholicism speaks volumes to Christ calling you home. Pray and listen to where God is guiding you. There are times where I feel I miss the Lutheran mass. I have come to love the Catholic mass over time. There is so much beauty in it.

Feel free to ask questions or pm me as needed. I guess I just don’t know how to expand more at this point.

 

[Newbie2]

I have studied Catholicism for some time now and feel a very strong pull in that direction. One of my dilemmas is the Eucharist. Coming from a Lutheran background I have always believed that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist, this is where my difficulty lies. I have no objections to the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist; in fact I have found the depth of the Catholic view to be very refreshing. However, the Catholic rejects the validity of the Lutheran Mass. To become a Catholic is to say that what I have received and venerated as Christ was merely bread and wine, this would make me into a monstrous idolater. It is in some ways quite ironic to have become to doubt the Eucharist, as celebrated by Protestants, due to sympathy with a Catholic understanding of the church. It’s so difficult because I long for the Eucharist yet I’m not quite ready to make the jump. In the meantime, I find the Catholic mass to be awkward and the Lutheran mass to be filled with doubts. Any insight or comments especially from converts from churches with a high Eucharistic view would be greatly appreciated.

I too came from a LCMS background.

Consider this, when a Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist at mass (illness, let’s say), we recognize that that person can receive the grace that the Sacrament provides by making a “spiritual communion” with the rest of the congregation and the Lord. Even thought the reception of the consecrated host and wine is the outward sign of the sacrament, there is the more important inner spiritual communion with our Lord.

This is very similar to the notion of “Baptism by desire”, where one can receive the graces of Baptism without actually participating in the Baptism rite.

That’s not to say that these are “outs”, or ways of skirting around the Sacramental form and norms in order to receive a measure of grace. However, we legitimately recognize a desire to “connect” with our Lord as a valid means of receiving grace.

However, with this in mind, you might want to reflect on this notion. To say that your reception of the Lord’s Supper was idolatrous is incorrect, methinks. To say that you didn’t receive any grace through that “sacrament” (defined as a sacrament by Lutherans but not by Catholics for reasons mentioned in other posts) is also incorrect.

I would suggest looking on your reception of the Lord’s Supper as an “incomplete” rite; it isn’t totally worthless or idolatrous, it helped you connect with our Lord and receive grace in a similar way that prayer does. It may be helpful to look then as reception of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church as a complete rite, a more complete bonding with our Lord than what was available to you previously.

You might also want to search for threads on “Communion by desire” or similar wording for some more insight.

I looked at my 30-some years as an LCMS Lutheran as training for becoming Catholic.