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Shibboleth
Guest
This is odd to say the least. A Lutheran minister can no more deny the existence of God than a Catholic priest can…
I think some of this must have been taken out of context…. I hope.
Either way I hope that he either clarifies his statements or returns back to the faith. For Lutherans the only way a baptized individual can be damned is if they deny God.
I think some of this must have been taken out of context…. I hope.
Either way I hope that he either clarifies his statements or returns back to the faith. For Lutherans the only way a baptized individual can be damned is if they deny God.
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oat_soda
Guest
do you mean denying the existance of God or his saving grace? i don’t think any church, even the catholic church can definitivley say who’s damned -that’s God’s job. doesn’t it say in the bible that even the demons believe that God is one?
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Shibboleth
Guest
I did use more simplistic words than necessary to explain the Lutheran point of view. I did not say that this person was damned, nor do I have any reason to think that he would be…
I did state that someone that does deny God can be damned in that they do not achieve salvation. Most Lutherans do not believe in a fiery Hell but a second death, the death of a soul.
Denial of God and his saving Grace are the same, if you deny him you deny him…
Yes daemons believe but that is not what I Lutherans refer to in such instances… I am referring to faith which transcends simple belief in something.
Daemons have not been baptized so they do not have his grace and are incapable of having faith.
I did state that someone that does deny God can be damned in that they do not achieve salvation. Most Lutherans do not believe in a fiery Hell but a second death, the death of a soul.
Denial of God and his saving Grace are the same, if you deny him you deny him…
Yes daemons believe but that is not what I Lutherans refer to in such instances… I am referring to faith which transcends simple belief in something.
Daemons have not been baptized so they do not have his grace and are incapable of having faith.
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Antonio_B
Guest
Amazing, just amazing, and the following statement in the article is even more amazing to me,
“In Denmark, Lutheran priests are employed by the state and bishops do not have the power to dismiss them.”
Antonio
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Cherubino
Guest
Perhaps even stranger is this. Meister Eckhart wrote, “So we say that a man should be so poor that he neither is nor has in himself any place where God can act. Where a man keeps a place in himself, he keeps distinctions. Therefore I ask God to make me empty of God, for my essential being is above God, insofar as we conceive God as the source of all creatures. In that very being of God where God is above being and above distinctions, I was myself, I wanted myself and understood myself in order to make this man that I am. That is why I am my own cause according to my own being, which is eternal, and not according to my becoming, which is temporal. And therefore I am unborn, and according to my unbornness I can never die. According to my unbornness, I have eternally existed and am now and will eternally remain. What I am according to my bornness will die and turn into nothing, for it is mortal; therefore it must in time be destroyed. In my birth all things were born, and I was the cause of myself and all things; and if I had willed it, I would not exist nor would anything exist; and if I didn’t exist, ‘God’ too would not exist. I am the cause that God is ‘God’; and if I did not exist, God would not be ‘God.’”
Eckhart was posthumously excommunicated by Pope John XXII in 1329, and all his writings Indexed, for “preaching to the laity the secrets of the Church.” and the banning of his writings for 17 specific heresies and 11 “questionable doctrines” has never been rescinded by the Vatican. But what I find both remarkable and ironic is that his writings are available in modern English thanks almost entirely to Catholic translators, historians and Catholic-owned publishing houses.
In 1985 a rather prominent Catholic theologian said in a well-publicized speech: “Did not Eckhart teach his disciples: ‘All that God asks you most pressingly is to go out of yourself - and let God be God in you’? One could think that, in separating himself from creatures, the mystic leaves his brothers, humanity, behind. The same Eckhart affirms that, on the contrary, the mystic is marvelously present to them on the only level where he can truly reach them, that is in God.”
So, who was that so-called theologian who lavished such an honor on a certified heretic by thus quoting him? That theologian was Pope John Paul II.
Eckhart was posthumously excommunicated by Pope John XXII in 1329, and all his writings Indexed, for “preaching to the laity the secrets of the Church.” and the banning of his writings for 17 specific heresies and 11 “questionable doctrines” has never been rescinded by the Vatican. But what I find both remarkable and ironic is that his writings are available in modern English thanks almost entirely to Catholic translators, historians and Catholic-owned publishing houses.
In 1985 a rather prominent Catholic theologian said in a well-publicized speech: “Did not Eckhart teach his disciples: ‘All that God asks you most pressingly is to go out of yourself - and let God be God in you’? One could think that, in separating himself from creatures, the mystic leaves his brothers, humanity, behind. The same Eckhart affirms that, on the contrary, the mystic is marvelously present to them on the only level where he can truly reach them, that is in God.”
So, who was that so-called theologian who lavished such an honor on a certified heretic by thus quoting him? That theologian was Pope John Paul II.
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jimmy
Guest
Antonio B:
I noticed that too an thought it was pretty amazing. The state controls the religion.Amazing, just amazing, and the following statement in the article is even more amazing to me,
“In Denmark, Lutheran priests are employed by the state and bishops do not have the power to dismiss them.”
Antonio
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jimmy
Guest
Can you give me a link to the speech in which JPII quoted Eckhart.
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Cherubino
Guest
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oat_soda
Guest
Cherubino,
can you or anyone explain why Meister Eckhart was excommunicated? i don’t understand what he is talking about in this post.
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JGC
Guest
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puzzleannie
Guest
the Lutheran pastor should just join the club, I have had to sit thru 2 homilies this year alone by Catholic priests who shared their lack of faith with us, and then went on to congratulate themselves on their “intellectual maturity”
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Antonio_B
Guest
Code:
Exactly! Can you imagine the U.S. government saying they will hire and fire Catholic priests and their bishops can’t do anything about it?
Did you also notice how my message was twisted to no end even though I simply expressed my surprise at what was happening in Denmark?
Antonio
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Cherubino
Guest
oat_soda,
Meister Eckhart (1260-1327) was Dominican friar and instructor of both clergy and laity, having been given the title of Meister (Master of Theology) by Pope Boniface VIII. He was nevertheless accused of teaching heresies and brought before the Inquisition in Venice in 1325. He made a public declaration of orthodoxy on February 13, 1327, the last date he was known to be alive. The Inquisition refused his appeal on February 22, and there is no record of what happened to him after that, except that he died later that year. He was formally excommunicated in a Papal Bull issued by John XXII on March 27, 1329, two years after his death, for preaching to the people in their own language–a charge to which he had already replied: “If the ignorant are not taught they will never learn; the business of the doctor is to heal.”
Meister Eckhart (1260-1327) was Dominican friar and instructor of both clergy and laity, having been given the title of Meister (Master of Theology) by Pope Boniface VIII. He was nevertheless accused of teaching heresies and brought before the Inquisition in Venice in 1325. He made a public declaration of orthodoxy on February 13, 1327, the last date he was known to be alive. The Inquisition refused his appeal on February 22, and there is no record of what happened to him after that, except that he died later that year. He was formally excommunicated in a Papal Bull issued by John XXII on March 27, 1329, two years after his death, for preaching to the people in their own language–a charge to which he had already replied: “If the ignorant are not taught they will never learn; the business of the doctor is to heal.”
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Ahimsa
Guest
That Eckhart. Rabblerouser. Troublemaker. Corrupter of the youth of Athens…er, I mean Germany.
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jimmy
Guest
Antonio B:
I did not notice that about your earlier post until you mentioned it.
I can imagine that. The church would not be able to deal with Heresy within the church at all. They would not be able to discipline there own preists.Exactly! Can you imagine the U.S. government saying they will hire and fire Catholic priests and their bishops can’t do anything about it?Code:
Did you also notice how my message was twisted to no end even though I simply expressed my surprise at what was happening in Denmark?
Antonio
I did not notice that about your earlier post until you mentioned it.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
oat soda:
"Thorkild Grosboel is accused of sowing confusion
A Danish Lutheran priest has been suspended from his duties after confessing that he does not believe in God.
Thorkild Grosboel, pastor of Taarbaek, a town near the capital Copenhagen, said in a recent interview that “there is no heavenly God, there is no eternal life, there is no resurrection”.
The article seemed rather clear to me:
"Thorkild Grosboel is accused of sowing confusion
A Danish Lutheran priest has been suspended from his duties after confessing that he does not believe in God.
Thorkild Grosboel, pastor of Taarbaek, a town near the capital Copenhagen, said in a recent interview that “there is no heavenly God, there is no eternal life, there is no resurrection”.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Actually yes, and actually no, in some countries. Various states deal with the churches within them in various ways; for instance in the Czech Republc, they pay each priest/minister a stipend. They also have an interest in St. Vitus Cathedral as it is a historical landmark as well as the main cathedral in Prague.
So each concordat has each item spelled out according to the agreement which the Church and government signs in order for the Church to operate within a nation. I am not familiar with the agreement made by the Lutherans but I know that priests can be “rmoved” or “transferred” at the will of the church, not the government. As I say, each government varies according to the agreement reached by it with the specific denomination. Perhaps Lutheranism is the “state” religion? I just don’t know.
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Shibboleth
Guest
Antonio B:
When I came to this website I was surprised at the overall comments against Martin Luther and how he had almost single-handedly fractured the Church. This is not true at all…
If one had to list the key players of the reformation, Luther would definitely be at the top of the list , but it is because he was put there by those that needed him in that position.
Germany and other areas of Europe wanted to break free from the concept of a unified Empire and establish their own national identity. To get that sovereignty one had to ultimately break free from Rome. After the discovery that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery it was just a matter of time before this happened. newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm
Luther at any time could have been transferred to Rome and he would have been very quietly taken care of… The Electorals did not want this to happen. They did what they could so as to not defy Rome but at the same time used Luther as a tool to encourage dissent from Rome.
Of course in the end the nobility and the like won and worked towards forming their own totally independent and sovereign nations. Part of showing that they were free from the ‘papist yoke’ was to establish their own state governed Church.
Some of these State Governed Churches still exist today.
In many of the Scandinavian Countries the Lutheran Church is the state religion. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and Iceland are a few such countries.Amazing, just amazing, and the following statement in the article is even more amazing to me,
“In Denmark, Lutheran priests are employed by the state and bishops do not have the power to dismiss them.”
Antonio
When I came to this website I was surprised at the overall comments against Martin Luther and how he had almost single-handedly fractured the Church. This is not true at all…
If one had to list the key players of the reformation, Luther would definitely be at the top of the list , but it is because he was put there by those that needed him in that position.
Germany and other areas of Europe wanted to break free from the concept of a unified Empire and establish their own national identity. To get that sovereignty one had to ultimately break free from Rome. After the discovery that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery it was just a matter of time before this happened. newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm
Luther at any time could have been transferred to Rome and he would have been very quietly taken care of… The Electorals did not want this to happen. They did what they could so as to not defy Rome but at the same time used Luther as a tool to encourage dissent from Rome.
Of course in the end the nobility and the like won and worked towards forming their own totally independent and sovereign nations. Part of showing that they were free from the ‘papist yoke’ was to establish their own state governed Church.
Some of these State Governed Churches still exist today.
J
jimmy
Guest
I see your points but when Luther left the church I think he gave other disenters hope so to speak. When he left others saw this and they followed. Now it is a disaster. I do not want to argue about this though because that is not the point of the thread.
Lets not get off track though.
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