Lutheran "priesthood"

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A Lutheran friend and I are discussing the finer points and differences between our two faiths and one point of contention is the area of “consubstantiation” and the validity of the Lutheran “priesthood” to change the elements.

I had read that we as Catholics do not believe that a Lutheran minister is able to change the elements . . . and that brings up a few questions:
  1. What is the Lutheran theology in this area? Not necessarily in response to the “in, with, and under” explanation of the Eucharist, but how do they think that the elements are changed? How would they say that the minister has the ability to consecrate the hosts?
  2. What is the Catholic response to this? What has the magisterium said about this? Are there any articles or documents I could share with my friend?
  3. If we have any Lutherans out there, what is your rebuttal to the Catholic response?
Thanks.
 
Sorry I don’t have any help for you, but perhaps you should put this question in the “Non Catholic Religions” Forum.

Hope you get a good answer.

Betsy
 
This is basically what a priest named Fr Paul had to say about the subject in another thread.

For Catholics, the Real Presence in the Eucharist in which the change is described by transubstantiation can only be had if the one who presides over the celebration is a priest ordained in Apostolic Succession. In Lutheran theology, the ministry of believers acting at the Eucharist does not see any authority or power given through the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
For words of the minister to be effective, the minister must have the authority of ordination that is only found in those Bishops and Priests ordained in direct Apostolic Succession, since the authority is that of Christ himself who directly gave this authority to the Apostles and who in turn only transmitted this authority by the laying of hands in Holy Orders.
During the Reformation, the Lutheran ministry was separated from the sacramental episcopate and lost the historical succession of bishops from the apostles. Without this historical succession by laying of hands that has its authority from Christ, the Lutheran minister lacks the priestly character and the authority to preside at the Eucharist.
Without ordination that has a line that can be traced to Christ’s authority given to the Apostles, the priestly character is not given, and the Eucharist cannot be consecrated into the Body and Blood.
 
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PrayingTwice:
A Lutheran friend and I are discussing the finer points and differences between our two faiths and one point of contention is the area of “consubstantiation” and the validity of the Lutheran “priesthood” to change the elements.

I had read that we as Catholics do not believe that a Lutheran minister is able to change the elements . . . and that brings up a few questions:
  1. What is the Lutheran theology in this area? Not necessarily in response to the “in, with, and under” explanation of the Eucharist, but how do they think that the elements are changed? How would they say that the minister has the ability to consecrate the hosts?
  2. What is the Catholic response to this? What has the magisterium said about this? Are there any articles or documents I could share with my friend?
  3. If we have any Lutherans out there, what is your rebuttal to the Catholic response?
Thanks.
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I too would like to hear just what Lutherans believe. What I have always understood from the few Lutherans I have talked to is that the the Bread exists physically and that Jesus exists spiritually in Communion.

Luther believed that the authrority of the priest comes from the community and that the community, not necessarly the Bishop has the power to Ordain new priests. Or that priests can Ordain other priests.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
I too would like to hear just what Lutherans believe. What I have always understood from the few Lutherans I have talked to is that the the Bread exists physically and that Jesus exists spiritually in Communion.

Luther believed that the authrority of the priest comes from the community and that the community, not necessarly the Bishop has the power to Ordain new priests. Or that priests can Ordain other priests.
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Lutherans don’t call their clergy “priests.” And a curious by-product of their Eucharistic theology is that when the congregation disperses, Jesus is no longer present in the bread and wine. They can use it for bird food or salad dressing. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
…What I have always understood from the few Lutherans I have talked to is that the the Bread exists physically and that Jesus exists spiritually in Communion.
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Lutherans (at least a friend I know from the Missouri Synod stated as such) believe in Consubstantiation. Here’s a definition:

newadvent.org/cathen/04322a.htm
Catholic Encyclopedia:
…the substance of Christ’s Body exists together with the substance of bread, and in like manner the substance of His Blood together with the substance of wine…
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I asked my parish priest this question once because my husband is Lutheran. He told me that their ministers do not have the power to change the elements into the Body and Blood of Christ. He gave me the following analogy to explain it to my husband.

If someone were to come up to you and show you a piece of coal and say “Isn’t this diamond beautiful.” It would still be a piece of coal. You can believe whatever you want to about that piece of coal, but it doesn’t change it into a diamond. You don’t have to power to change it into a diamond with your belief. That is what the Lutheran’s believe, that through their common belief in Consubstantiation, the elements change.

We do not believe this. Through the direct Apostolic Succession, and the Holy Orders the Priest is given the power at the consecration to change the elements. I remember reading a story about one of the North American Martyrs. His fingers had been cut off. I know this is a gory detail, but without those proper consecrated fingers he could not consecrate the host at Mass. The consecration takes place through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, not by our belief or the Priest’s belief, or even by our sinfulness or the Priest’s. Despite all our sinfullness Jesus still comes to us.

God bless!
 
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elgom:
I asked my parish priest this question once because my husband is Lutheran. He told me that their ministers do not have the power to change the elements into the Body and Blood of Christ. He gave me the following analogy to explain it to my husband.

If someone were to come up to you and show you a piece of coal and say “Isn’t this diamond beautiful.” It would still be a piece of coal. You can believe whatever you want to about that piece of coal, but it doesn’t change it into a diamond. You don’t have to power to change it into a diamond with your belief. That is what the Lutheran’s believe, that through their common belief in Consubstantiation, the elements change.

We do not believe this. Through the direct Apostolic Succession, and the Holy Orders the Priest is given the power at the consecration to change the elements. I remember reading a story about one of the North American Martyrs. His fingers had been cut off. I know this is a gory detail, but without those proper consecrated fingers he could not consecrate the host at Mass. The consecration takes place through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, not by our belief or the Priest’s belief, or even by our sinfulness or the Priest’s. Despite all our sinfullness Jesus still comes to us.

God bless!
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I believe you refer to St. Isaac Jogues, a Jesuit Priest. He was captured and tortured by Iroquois Indians in Canada, including mutilating his hands. He was later ransomed to the Dutch. The Pope granted him a special dispensation to celebrate Mass with his mutilated hands. He then retruned to Canada, was again captured by the Iroquois and martyred.

gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2001/08/daily-08-02-2001.shtml
 
Martin Luther rejected the entire notion of the sacrificial priesthood being handed down through the apostles through the authority of the Catholic Church, that rejection is the basis of the Protestant Reformation, and of the theology that developed from it. (The history of the Anglican Church is another whole story). No priesthood=no Eucharist
 
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asquared:
Martin Luther rejected the entire notion of the sacrificial priesthood being handed down through the apostles through the authority of the Catholic Church, that rejection is the basis of the Protestant Reformation, and of the theology that developed from it. (The history of the Anglican Church is another whole story). No priesthood=no Eucharist
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Speaking as a Lutheran Pastor, we believe that Jesus is the Great High Priest, He has made the perfect sacrifice. His ransomed People, the whole people of God are “a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation.” We call it the “Priesthood of All Believers”. Pastors–as we are called–are set apart by the whole Church to act for it in the Ministry of Word and Sacrament, that’s why pastors can only officiate “under call” from a congregation, we are not “freelancers”. Ordained Pastors are acting locally for the whole universal church. The whole question of the “Sacrifice” of the Mass comes up here. That’s the whole point of this discussion. We believe that the Mass is NOT a Sacrifice, Catholics do. The question of the Real Presence is secondary to that. As for “no priesthood=no Eucharist” I find no scriptural warrant for a statement like that. Jesus says “Where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there am I in the midst of them.” Basta. The Eucharist is where Jesus is, and Jesus is where His People are.

Interestingly enough the State Church of Sweden, a Lutheran Church, has preserved the Apostolic Succession since the Reformation. Their bishops converted en masse at the Reformation and preserved the ministry then. The Moravians, the first German Lutheran Free Church, have kept the Apostolic Succession intact as well. I personally think it is more important to have the same faith as the Apostles, rather than thinking about some mere mechanical transmission of “authority,” as important as that is.
 
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mercygate:
Lutherans don’t call their clergy “priests.” And a curious by-product of their Eucharistic theology is that when the congregation disperses, Jesus is no longer present in the bread and wine. They can use it for bird food or salad dressing. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Hi Mercygate,
I know this thread has been unused for some time now, but during a specific search, it presented itself.
Looking at your comment, I felt it was up to me to correct your misunderstanding.
This link is associated with the Lutheran Church of Australia, however, on further inspection, it seems to fit the general concensus of Lutheranism.
lca.org.au/resources/cticr/dsto2reve2b.pdf

Peace and love to you and your loved ones. 🙂
 
Shari,

I don’t think there would be any such consensus among Lutheran denominations here in the USA. What happens to the communion bread after the service varies even between individual congregations.
 
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drforjc:
Shari,

I don’t think there would be any such consensus among Lutheran denominations here in the USA. What happens to the communion bread after the service varies even between individual congregations.
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drforjc, 🙂
I agree…if you note, I said ‘general concensus’, not, ‘unanimous practice’…I have checked out quite a few Lutheran sites, WELS, ELCA, LCMS, LCC etc) and the concensus still seems to be that due reverence is to be given in the disposal of the unused, consecrated host. Of course, like everywhere, there are abuses, and if the churches don’t dispose of it reverently, then they are not holding to Luther’s teaching that they are to dispose of the host reverently.
With all due respect,

Peace and Love. 🙂
 
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