Lutheran vs Anglican

[ajcstr]

WOW, this thread has certainly exceeded my expectations !!

Certainly keep it going, but I wanted to say thanks to all, I am learning much.

 

[IowaJay]

I guess it depends on the Lutheran belief of what Baptism does - it is the Catholic interpretation of being “born again through water and spirit”. Not sure if the Lutheran sees it this way or not. Also, I may be incorrect about which denominational Baptism’s would be recognized by the Catholic Church, I just guessed they would all be do-overs, but maybe that does not apply to Lutheran and/or Anglicans.

As far as I know, Catholic and Lutheran understandings of baptism are very similar if not identical. We both believe in baptismal regeneration.

It is also my understanding that post-Vatican II, as long as the non-Catholic baptism was done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and used water, it is deemed valid and is not repeated upon entry into the Catholic Church. So, that would make 90%+ of non-Catholic Christian baptisms valid. Mormons, and some Pentecostals who are not Trinitarian, are still not valid.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Fair enough. I did like the highlighted part, though. You said your crack was unnecessary but then you chuck in my “propensity to accuse” lol…kind of like saying someone’s mother is a fat slob then being told to apologize and you say, “Ok, I’m sorry your mom is a fat slob.” LOL “I shouldn’t have made that crack, but you usually accuse and rip on us” LOL…

I agree with your statement that we agree on more issues than we disagree for sure. Obviously I prefer more conservative, traditional (if that is even possible in Anglicanism) orthodox Anglicanism over TEC. My issues with TEC are moral ones, not so much church polity.

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No, and I didn’t say that you said they didn’t. You said that low- and broad-church Anglicans *did *subscribe to them. My point is that the “broad church” tends to look dimly on any kind of creeds or confessions–some of them even squirm at treating the Nicene Creed as a binding confession of faith. ***(I should have put it that way instead of making my unnecessary crack about your propensity to accuse Episcopalians of a loose attitude to doctrine. ***The accusation is certainly a fair one in many cases–hence my surprise that you would say that *broad church *Anglicans subscribe to the Articles.)

Roughly speaking, low-church Anglicans take the Articles seriously; high-church Anglicans take the creeds and confessions of the first millennium seriously; and broad-church Anglicans have trouble with any kind of creedal statement, though many of them will subscribe to the Nicene Creed at least. It all depends on how low, how high, or how broad we are talking about, of course. In my experience most Episcopalians (not speaking for the ACNA here) subscribe to the Nicene Creed and don’t want anything more restrictive than that.

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The majority of the ACNA is evangelical-leaning, certainly. I wouldn’t say that about TEC. TEC is by and large “liberal Catholic”–i.e., a combination of broad-church theology with a very diffuse influence of Anglo-Catholicism. I’m not willing to say that this Anglo-Catholic influence is merely “smells and bells”–I think it’s theological as well. But I understand why “real” Anglo-Catholics wouldn’t recognize it as Anglo-Catholicism.

At any rate, I’m not sure we are disagreeing, because I’m making claims about the influence of Anglo-Catholicism. I’m certainly not interested in making claims about how many North American Anglicans are actually Anglo-Catholic, in part because we could argue endlessly about where the line is to be drawn between Anglo-Catholics and generic Anglicans with some Anglo-Catholic influence. As you point out, many of the hardline Anglo-Catholics would draw the line at the ordination of women.

An example of what I would consider Anglo-Catholicism but what a conservative might say is just liberal Anglicanism with Catholic trappings is St. Mark’s in Philadelphia.

But even St. Mark’s is certainly not typical of Episcopal parishes.

Edwin

 

[Nominefili]

“who cares, both Lutherans and Anglicans are doomed anyway?!” LOL

Agreed!

 

[Contarini]

Fair enough. I did like the highlighted part, though. You said your crack was unnecessary but then you chuck in my “propensity to accuse” lol…kind of like saying someone’s mother is a fat slob then being told to apologize and you say, “Ok, I’m sorry your mom is a fat slob.” LOL “I shouldn’t have made that crack, but you usually accuse and rip on us” LOL…

Well, you do. I can apologize for unnecessarily bringing it up, but I can’t pretend that I think your normal tone in speaking about the Episcopal Church is generous or even particularly fair, any more than you can pretend that you consider the Episcopal Church to be a fine, orthodox expression of Christianity. (I’m not sure even I think that, and I belong to it!)

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I just didn’t see the need to say it. You’ve said things that had me scratching my chin in the past, Edwin, and I have my own opinions about a few of your statements but when you make a point, I don’t need to do a critique of your other posts, your tone, or your general views. I take it post by post. I’m not asking you to pretend, but you don’t necessarily have to say it either, right? We all have our biases but my statements had nothing to do with morality but rather church polity. I don’t know why you say that I’m unfair toward TEC. No I’m not generous toward them, but fair? That’s definitely a matter of opinion. I believe I’ve been very fair in my assessment of TEC. I truly, 100% believe what I say about TEC. It’s nothing personal, just my view. I just still don’t see what my previous tones have to do with the post I had. I think it was unnecessary for you to have made the point but in any case, have a great weekend.

Well, you do. I can apologize for unnecessarily bringing it up, but I can’t pretend that I think your normal tone in speaking about the Episcopal Church is generous or even particularly fair, any more than you can pretend that you consider the Episcopal Church to be a fine, orthodox expression of Christianity. (I’m not sure even I think that, and I belong to it!)

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I hope you read the entire post and context. I said some people feel that way, not me.

Agreed!

 

[blazerdave]

I hope you read the entire post and context. I said some people feel that way, not me.

I must admit to great disappointment in the Lutheran vs Anglican showdown. I really thought that this thread was going to be like those “Batman vs. James Bond”-style threads. Just once, I wanna know who’s the baddest of them all. Instead, we had to go and talk about theology and stuff like that.

 

[GKC]

I must admit to great disappointment in the Lutheran vs Anglican showdown. I really thought that this thread was going to be like those “Batman vs. James Bond”-style threads. Just once, I wanna know who’s the baddest of them all. Instead, we had to go and talk about theology and stuff like that.

Predator vs. Alien.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

Anglican worship today looks as Catholic as it does mostly because of the Anglo-Catholics. Admittedly, many Anglicans have taken on the trappings without thinking through the theology. But I don’t think liturgy and theology can be disconnected from each other. Most people don’t think through their theology very systematically. Their theology is expressed to a great extent by how they worship.

I’m not just talking liturgy, although I think the liturgy is the first place to look for what Anglicans believe. Most Episcopalians I know speak, think, and act in ways that have been influenced by Anglo-Catholicism to some extent.

Edwin

If TEC is still Anglican the ones in my area have a variety of services. They do have traditional services but one Episcopal parish near me also has a weekly acoustic guitar service where participants stand gathered around the altar and pass the Body and Blood to each other. The same parish also has a youth band service with Christian rock music. I suppose the latter would be similar to Catholic Lifeteen. Another Episcopal parish holds a weekly jazz music service with keyboard, piano, sax, and drums and it is held in their fellowship hall.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome…“two theologians enter, one man leaves!”

Predator vs. Alien.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

I just didn’t see the need to say it. You’ve said things that had me scratching my chin in the past, Edwin, and I have my own opinions about a few of your statements but when you make a point, I don’t need to do a critique of your other posts, your tone, or your general views. I take it post by post. I’m not asking you to pretend, but you don’t necessarily have to say it either, right? We all have our biases but my statements had nothing to do with morality but rather church polity. I don’t know why you say that I’m unfair toward TEC. No I’m not generous toward them, but fair? That’s definitely a matter of opinion. I believe I’ve been very fair in my assessment of TEC. I truly, 100% believe what I say about TEC. It’s nothing personal, just my view. I just still don’t see what my previous tones have to do with the post I had. I think it was unnecessary for you to have made the point but in any case, have a great weekend.

Gurney, good pt. We all have our views. I remember at one time you thought I should banish myself to TEC because you thought it was a better fit for me. But I didn’t think you had anything against me personally. I might be a Catholic more generous toward TEC than you but we’re still brothers in Christ! Everyone have a great weekend! Peace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Matt,
I never wanted to banish you …I hope you know that. And I’m nobody to sit on my high horse, trust me. I’ve never been in more of a spiritual rut and search in my life, both my wife and I. I simply pointed out to you that your theology, values, and views seemed more akin to the Episcopalians. That wasn’t an insult and I’m glad you knew that. I simply think everyone should go where they’re comfortable. Everyone keeps telling me I sound like an Orthodox Christian and that I should go there LOL…You are absolutely right that we’re brothers in Christ and I wish everyone well, Episcopalians not excluded. I just have serious disagreements and concerns with what they teach. I wish they’d reform and purge themselves of a lot of their agenda. The Catholic Church needs to clean out plenty of its own laundry that is caked with dirt right now.

I usually get into trouble with just about everyone with religion and politics because I’m not excessively biased or linear in my thinking. I’ll agree with Democrats on several issues and really tick off my Republican friends. Then I’ll agree with the GOP on a host of issues angering my more liberal acquaintances. I can’t win! LOL But then again, I don’t want to win. I just try to be me. If people think I’m this or that, I just have to accept it.

You have a great weekend, too! I have 28 school days left as of Monday…then a month-long trip to the Philippines so I have plenty on my mind!

Gurney, good pt. We all have our views. I remember at one time you thought I should banish myself to TEC because you thought it was a better fit for me. But I didn’t think you had anything against me personally. I might be a Catholic more generous toward TEC than you but we’re still brothers in Christ! Everyone have a great weekend! Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi Matt,
I never wanted to banish you …I hope you know that. And I’m nobody to sit on my high horse, trust me. I’ve never been in more of a spiritual rut and search in my life, both my wife and I. I simply pointed out to you that your theology, values, and views seemed more akin to the Episcopalians. That wasn’t an insult and I’m glad you knew that. I simply think everyone should go where they’re comfortable. Everyone keeps telling me I sound like an Orthodox Christian and that I should go there LOL…You are absolutely right that we’re brothers in Christ and I wish everyone well, Episcopalians not excluded. I just have serious disagreements and concerns with what they teach. I wish they’d reform and purge themselves of a lot of their agenda. The Catholic Church needs to clean out plenty of its own laundry that is caked with dirt right now.

I usually get into trouble with just about everyone with religion and politics because I’m not excessively biased or linear in my thinking. I’ll agree with Democrats on several issues and really tick off my Republican friends. Then I’ll agree with the GOP on a host of issues angering my more liberal acquaintances. I can’t win! LOL But then again, I don’t want to win. I just try to be me. If people think I’m this or that, I just have to accept it.

You have a great weekend, too! I have 28 school days left as of Monday…then a month-long trip to the Philippines so I have plenty on my mind!

I know that Gurney. You were knd to point out where my views seem to fit and if I weren’t Catholic, TEC is indeed one I’d consider. “Banish” was just my lame attempt at TEC humor for the more conservative elements of our forum. But I know you would not send another brother to banishment in TEC if you thought they were THAT bad! We’re cool. Best wishes in your final days of school, enjoy the trip and don’t forget the Dodger… uh I mean Giants game next mo.

 

[Contarini]

I just didn’t see the need to say it.

Indeed, and that is what I was apologizing for. Somehow you took my statement of what I was apologizing for as a repetition of the offense. I can only see how that could be the case if you thought my remark was not only unnecessary but false.

I’m happy to drop this, and I will do my best to avoid offending you in the future. We both have a lot of personal emotions bound up in this whole question of how to define Anglicanism, and it makes sense that we often wind up stepping on each other’s toes. But I’ll try to do better.

God bless!

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

God bless you, too, Edwin!

Indeed, and that is what I was apologizing for. Somehow you took my statement of what I was apologizing for as a repetition of the offense. I can only see how that could be the case if you thought my remark was not only unnecessary but false.

I’m happy to drop this, and I will do my best to avoid offending you in the future. We both have a lot of personal emotions bound up in this whole question of how to define Anglicanism, and it makes sense that we often wind up stepping on each other’s toes. But I’ll try to do better.

God bless!

Edwin