Lutheren Minister gives homily

[jmpoppy]

A relative of mine who attends a liberal Catholic church was telling me that a couple of weeks ago a Lutheren Minister gave the homily at their Sunday Mass. She expressed to me how beautiful his talk was on Christianity and she would have liked me to hear it. I told her that I am sure I would have enjoyed his talk in some other venue but I would not want to attend a Mass where a person other than the Priest or Deacon gave the homily because I was pretty sure it was against the liturgical rules of the church. She replied that she couldn’t understand why I was so narrow minded.

Am I being narrow minded?

Thanks in advance for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

John

 

[kage_ar]

Show your friend the official documents of the Church.

Here is the GIRM

usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

*The Homily
*65. The homily is part of the Liturgy and is strongly recommended,63 for it is necessary for
the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.

66. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it
**to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.****65 **

---

In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop
or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

There is to be a homily on Sundays and holy days of obligation at all Masses that are celebrated with the participation of a congregation; it may not be omitted without a serious reason. It is recommended on other days, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and the Easter Season, as well as on other festive days and occasions when the people come to church in greater numbers.66

After the homily a brief period of silence is appropriately observed.

 

[ljubim]

A relative of mine who attends a liberal Catholic church was telling me that a couple of weeks ago a Lutheren Minister gave the homily at their Sunday Mass. She expressed to me how beautiful his talk was on Christianity and she would have liked me to hear it. I told her that I am sure I would have enjoyed his talk in some other venue but I would not want to attend a Mass where a person other than the Priest or Deacon gave the homily because I was pretty sure it was against the liturgical rules of the church. She replied that she couldn’t understand why I was so narrow minded.

Am I being narrow minded?

Thanks in advance for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

John

No. You need to write your bishop quickly… he needs to know about the terrible abuses going on there.

 

[jamesdunnaway]

No. You need to write your bishop quickly… he needs to know about the terrible abuses going on there.

I aggree

 

[peary]

A relative of mine who attends a liberal Catholic church was telling me that a couple of weeks ago a Lutheren Minister gave the homily at their Sunday Mass. She expressed to me how beautiful his talk was on Christianity and she would have liked me to hear it. I told her that I am sure I would have enjoyed his talk in some other venue but I would not want to attend a Mass where a person other than the Priest or Deacon gave the homily because I was pretty sure it was against the liturgical rules of the church. She replied that she couldn’t understand why I was so narrow minded.

Am I being narrow minded?

Thanks in advance for you (name removed by moderator)ut.

John

No, you are correct.

The recent instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum” has dealt with this point quite clearly and in several places.

No. 64 states: “The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself, ‘should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.’”

No. 66 adds: “The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as ‘pastoral assistants’; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.”

Since a Lutheran minister is not a recognized priest or deacon of the Catholic Church, he is not allowed to give the Homily regardless. Period.

 

[paperwight]

No, you are correct.

The recent instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum” has dealt with this point quite clearly and in several places.

No. 64 states: “The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself, ‘should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.’”

No. 66 adds: “The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as ‘pastoral assistants’; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.”

Since a Lutheran minister is not a recognized priest or deacon of the Catholic Church, he is not allowed to give the Homily regardless. Period.

Well, in the UK at least, it’s not so black and white - there can be exceptional occasions. During the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, the ministers of all the denoms in the local grouping all swap round churches for one of the services, and preach. This has been happening for years, and has the very beneficial result that non-RCs see that a Catholic priest talks about Jesus and not about worshipping Mary or statues.

I hadn’t realised that the Week wasn’t worldwide, to tell the truth.

 

[kage_ar]

Well, in the UK at least, it’s not so black and white - there can be exceptional occasions. During the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, the ministers of all the denoms in the local grouping all swap round churches for one of the services, and preach. This has been happening for years, and has the very beneficial result that non-RCs see that a Catholic priest talks about Jesus and not about worshipping Mary or statues.

I hadn’t realised that the Week wasn’t worldwide, to tell the truth.

The GIRM and RS are universal, can you point to an official vatican document that gives the UK an exception?

 

[paperwight]

The GIRM and RS are universal, can you point to an official vatican document that gives the UK an exception?

No I can’t, because I don’t have the documents. But it (the Week) appears in the Archdiocesan Ordo and that’s good enough for me.

The practice seems to me to be wholly beneficial. Christians from other churches come to us to read or say the bidding prayers, as well as a minister visiting to preach/give a talk, and so are exposed to the Mass. They see that it is not all about Mary or saying the rosary, and that our churches are full of ordinary people just like them.

In the same way, we visit non-Catholic services to read or whatever. And generally, it has to be said, come away appreciating our own Mass all the more.

 

[Phemie]

There is nothing that forbids a Catholic priest from preaching in a non-Catholic, Christian Church if invited. In fact, the **“Directory for the Application of *****Principles and Norms on Ecumenism” ***# 118 says:

1. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

A non-Catholic Christian can also be allowed to do a reading during the Mass, “for exceptional and just cause”. Most bishops I think would give permission for this during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, which, yes, is world-wide. But the same Directory reiterates that the homily is limited to the Priest or Deacon. OTOH, it also says that they can preach in the Catholic Church at a liturgy other than Mass.

1. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.

1. In the Catholic Eucharistic Liturgy, the homily which forms part of the liturgy itself is reserved to the priest or deacon, since it is the presentation of the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian living in accordance with Catholic teaching and tradition.

1. For the reading of Scripture and preaching during other than Eucharistic celebrations, the norms given above (n. 118) are to be applied.

.

 

[kage_ar]

There is nothing that forbids a Catholic priest from preaching in a non-Catholic, Christian Church if invited. In fact, the **“Directory for the Application of *****Principles and Norms on Ecumenism” ***# 118 says:

A non-Catholic Christian can also be allowed to do a reading during the Mass, “for exceptional and just cause”. Most bishops I think would give permission for this during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, which, yes, is world-wide. But the same Directory reiterates that the homily is limited to the Priest or Deacon. OTOH, it also says that they can preach in the Catholic Church at a liturgy other than Mass.
.

That is exactly what I thought - seems odd that an entire country would disregard the Norms

 

[benedictgal]

Well, in the UK at least, it’s not so black and white - there can be exceptional occasions. During the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, the ministers of all the denoms in the local grouping all swap round churches for one of the services, and preach. This has been happening for years, and has the very beneficial result that non-RCs see that a Catholic priest talks about Jesus and not about worshipping Mary or statues.

I hadn’t realised that the Week wasn’t worldwide, to tell the truth.

But, RS applies to every country, to every place in the world. Just because something appears in the Archdiocesan Ordo that does not necessarily mean that it is applicable to the Mass. As others have indicated, the only ones allowed to preach during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are the deacon, priest and bishop. The documents are very clear about that, specifically RS.

 

[Phemie]

But, RS applies to every country, to every place in the world. Just because something appears in the Archdiocesan Ordo that does not necessarily mean that it is applicable to the Mass. As others have indicated, the only ones allowed to preach during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are the deacon, priest and bishop. The documents are very clear about that, specifically RS.

I don’t think he was saying that what shows up in the ORDO gives special permission for anything, just that the “Week of Prayer for Christian Unity” exists because he finds it in his ORDO but is questioning if it is only in the UK. As we know, it’s a universal and many Christian Churches share liturgies in that week.

I know that in our community, which is small, we take turns hosting the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity service. Even when it’s in our Church, it’s not Mass because that would only highlight our division, not our unity. Usually the person who preaches is not the pastor of the hosting Church so we would end up with a non-Catholic preaching in our parish, something which is allowed in a non-Eucharistic litury.

Of course, some people take this “Christian Unity” too far. Last year our local Anglican Church hosted and because their Primate was in town for meetings and it was the only night available for it, the Liturgy was an Anglican Communion Service. Their Bishop was presiding and I had to keep telling myself that I wasn’t at Mass, because other than the placement of the Sign of Peace, it was pretty much the same. No, they weren’t the ones who took it too far.

When Communion came, I stayed in my pew of course, but then saw my pastor go up and kneel at the rail to receive. Other women who had stayed put, upon seeing him go up to receive, followed suit. That’s taking it too far.

 

[peary]

Well, in the UK at least, it’s not so black and white - there can be exceptional occasions. During the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, the ministers of all the denoms in the local grouping all swap round churches for one of the services, and preach. This has been happening for years, and has the very beneficial result that non-RCs see that a Catholic priest talks about Jesus and not about worshipping Mary or statues.

I hadn’t realised that the Week wasn’t worldwide, to tell the truth.

I don’t think that the UK can be held up as an example of adherence to the Catholic Faith. If the english bishops would spend more time instructing their flocks rather than swapping them around for other flocks for services and preaching, perhaps the Faith would have been strengthened there. I don’t think it has been beneficial to nonCatholics in the UK at all. Since Catholics don’t worship Mary or her statues, that is a nonissue, and both Catholics and Protestants in the UK are missing an opportunity to learn the Truth about the Catholic Faith.