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Kathrin
Guest
When is lying a mortal sin? Always? Does it depend on the lie? I really don’t know.
Kathrin
Kathrin
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teachccd
Guest
I would think that a lie could be a mortal sin if that lie undermined the dignity of either yourself or anyone else. You must know that the lie degrades and then consent to continue with such an act. An example might be if you lied to your employer about someone in order to further your position leaving the other person in jeopardy regarding their reputation with the company and co-workers. A lie concerning perhaps that you are already receiving a certain magazine when phoned by a solicitor would not constitute grave sin… that’s my two cents:shrug:
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Seatuck
Guest
Lying is not permitted.Sometimes it is mortal sometimes it is venial.
newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm
cuf.org/Laywitness/LWonline/MaierJA06.asp
newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm
cuf.org/Laywitness/LWonline/MaierJA06.asp
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LilyM
Guest
I hardly think something along the lines of ‘no honey, you don’t look fat in that’ would qualify as even a venial sin.
Although I suppose the best thing would be to mix honesty and civility - ‘you look beautiful in anything, sugarcakes, but I think xyz dress is the most beautiful …’
And certainly more serious lying should be avoided at all costs. Take it from someone who was quite the compulsive lier when young - every one lie breeds a dozen more you’ve got to tell to cover up the first one.
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Tietjen
Guest
Okay, here’s a twist. I’ve seen a thread on this before but I am always curious as to what different people think of this issue.
What about law enforcement lying when undercover or during interrogation? Sin?
My personal belief is no, because by lying, they are helping to effect a good (make the arrest / get a confession). What do you all think?
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Kathrin
Guest
Tietjen, that is really an interesting question. I honestly don’t really know how I would answer that! I am also curious what other people are going to say!
I have two issues:
A) Minor lies that I don’t reall intend (maybe the most recent example that I am aware of: Asking somebody to watch my stuff while I go get something, they say they can until their streetcar comes, I say that should be enough time for me; I leave and also intend to wash my hands on the way - which I didn’t tell them - get held up because it takes longer to find a restroom, when I get back they are gone. And I know I was being irresponsible and probably caused them some ehartache wondering if they should wait or not.) Things like that I do sometimes I think, even though I am really really careful about telling the truth.
B) The other, maybe more continuous issue: I travel to the US a lot, and since I enter often and travel on very little money it has happened twice so far that I was taken to secondary inspection at the border.
Over there, in San Francisco, I mostly do good things like help the homeless and help elderly or ill friends, and not for money. But I hate being put on the spot. And yes, in the past there HAS been a time when I let others talk me into doing some minor work for money for them even though I am not allowed to work in the US. A few times of babysitting, for example. Helping a friend clean up his apartment. Just a few hours here and there. And yes, playing the guitar in the street.) Long time ago though. And one time when I was questioned I was really honest about it. Since I do a lot of charity stuff the inspector only limited my stay and let me in after all. Saying something like these things were technically illegal but minor things.
Another time they asked me if I had ever worked as a musician in the US and I said no, even though long time ago I did play the guitar and sing in the street - but does that count as work?
I am sometimes so afraid of what they might ask me. I have been really strict about not working, but as I said, years ago sometimes I let friends convince me otherwise for a few hours or so. So U can really say “I don’t work in the US” if they ask me, but if they ask about “have you ever” that might put me in a difficult spot.
And then if I did say something that would make them send me back home to Europe I would hurt some people too.
I did talk about this second issue with a priest about a year ago, and he said since the one officer had said that was minor stuff I didn’t really have to mention it anymore.
Kathrin
I have two issues:
A) Minor lies that I don’t reall intend (maybe the most recent example that I am aware of: Asking somebody to watch my stuff while I go get something, they say they can until their streetcar comes, I say that should be enough time for me; I leave and also intend to wash my hands on the way - which I didn’t tell them - get held up because it takes longer to find a restroom, when I get back they are gone. And I know I was being irresponsible and probably caused them some ehartache wondering if they should wait or not.) Things like that I do sometimes I think, even though I am really really careful about telling the truth.
B) The other, maybe more continuous issue: I travel to the US a lot, and since I enter often and travel on very little money it has happened twice so far that I was taken to secondary inspection at the border.
Over there, in San Francisco, I mostly do good things like help the homeless and help elderly or ill friends, and not for money. But I hate being put on the spot. And yes, in the past there HAS been a time when I let others talk me into doing some minor work for money for them even though I am not allowed to work in the US. A few times of babysitting, for example. Helping a friend clean up his apartment. Just a few hours here and there. And yes, playing the guitar in the street.) Long time ago though. And one time when I was questioned I was really honest about it. Since I do a lot of charity stuff the inspector only limited my stay and let me in after all. Saying something like these things were technically illegal but minor things.
Another time they asked me if I had ever worked as a musician in the US and I said no, even though long time ago I did play the guitar and sing in the street - but does that count as work?
I am sometimes so afraid of what they might ask me. I have been really strict about not working, but as I said, years ago sometimes I let friends convince me otherwise for a few hours or so. So U can really say “I don’t work in the US” if they ask me, but if they ask about “have you ever” that might put me in a difficult spot.
And then if I did say something that would make them send me back home to Europe I would hurt some people too.
I did talk about this second issue with a priest about a year ago, and he said since the one officer had said that was minor stuff I didn’t really have to mention it anymore.
Kathrin
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Seatuck
Guest
newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
This article may be helpful to understand the Catholic teaching on lying. Read it along with the first link I gave on lying.
Also these exerpts from the Baltimore Catechism-
Q. 1306. What are we commanded by the eighth Commandment?
A. We are commanded by the eighth Commandment to speak the truth in all things, and to be careful of the honor and reputation of every one.
Q. 1307. What is a lie?
A. A lie is a sin committed by knowingly saying what is untrue with the intention of deceiving. To swear to a lie makes the sin greater, and such swearing is called perjury. Pretense, hypocrisy, false praise, boasting, etc., are similar to lies.
Q. 1308. How can we know the degree of sinfulness in a lie?
A. We can know the degree of sinfulness in a lie by the amount of harm it does and from the intention we had in telling it.
Q. 1309. Will a good reason for telling a lie excuse it?
A. No reason, however good, will excuse the telling of a lie, because a lie is always bad in itself. It is never allowed, even for a good intention to do a thing that is bad in itself.
The Church has always taught that direct lying to deceive is a sin. Even those “little white lies”. We can usually avoid directly answering a question with a lie.
This article may be helpful to understand the Catholic teaching on lying. Read it along with the first link I gave on lying.
Also these exerpts from the Baltimore Catechism-
Q. 1306. What are we commanded by the eighth Commandment?
A. We are commanded by the eighth Commandment to speak the truth in all things, and to be careful of the honor and reputation of every one.
Q. 1307. What is a lie?
A. A lie is a sin committed by knowingly saying what is untrue with the intention of deceiving. To swear to a lie makes the sin greater, and such swearing is called perjury. Pretense, hypocrisy, false praise, boasting, etc., are similar to lies.
Q. 1308. How can we know the degree of sinfulness in a lie?
A. We can know the degree of sinfulness in a lie by the amount of harm it does and from the intention we had in telling it.
Q. 1309. Will a good reason for telling a lie excuse it?
A. No reason, however good, will excuse the telling of a lie, because a lie is always bad in itself. It is never allowed, even for a good intention to do a thing that is bad in itself.
The Church has always taught that direct lying to deceive is a sin. Even those “little white lies”. We can usually avoid directly answering a question with a lie.
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Kathrin
Guest
Very interesting. Thanks for the links!
Kathrin
Kathrin
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Seatuck
Guest
Your very welcome. It was good for me to read . I needed to fine tune my understanding as well.
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thistle
Guest
CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
CCC 2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.
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Tietjen
Guest
While I do not disagree with the Church, it does present a problem for all those law enforcement personnel who must maintain a cover or risk death.
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Matthias123
Guest
Edit: I just figured it out.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=178934&highlight=undercover
It is only lying if the person has a right to the information.
Fr. Vincent Serpa:
Look here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=178934&highlight=undercover
It is only lying if the person has a right to the information.
Fr. Vincent Serpa:
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Kathrin
Guest
I have also thought about this after reading some of the articles.
In one of the articles there is an example similar to the one with the Jews: Somebody hiding in your house, and those seeking to kill him ask you if that person is there. What do you say?
The article, if I remember right, did mention the possibility to avoid lying by saying something like “how should I know?”.
It also said something about, it is better to sacrifice the other person’s life than to secrifice your soul, because - yes, of course - the soul is so much more important than a life.
BUT, on the other hand, it would feel a tiny bit “selfish”? To think, I am more important than he is… ok, it is soul versus earthly life, but it IS also me versus him…
Difficult.
A question I asked myself also is this: In just how MUCH danger would my soul be if I protected that man? Would THAT lie now be a MORTAL sin?
The article, or one of the articles, also said that if my conscience tells me to say the man isn’t there, then that would not be really a lie because I wouldn’t be speaking against my mind.
And following our conscience is important too.
Maybe just generally, we have to take to heart what yesterday’s Scriüpture said about not planning beforehand what we will say, but letting the Holy Spirit lead us?
That thought is comforting.
Kathrin
In one of the articles there is an example similar to the one with the Jews: Somebody hiding in your house, and those seeking to kill him ask you if that person is there. What do you say?
The article, if I remember right, did mention the possibility to avoid lying by saying something like “how should I know?”.
It also said something about, it is better to sacrifice the other person’s life than to secrifice your soul, because - yes, of course - the soul is so much more important than a life.
BUT, on the other hand, it would feel a tiny bit “selfish”? To think, I am more important than he is… ok, it is soul versus earthly life, but it IS also me versus him…
Difficult.
A question I asked myself also is this: In just how MUCH danger would my soul be if I protected that man? Would THAT lie now be a MORTAL sin?
The article, or one of the articles, also said that if my conscience tells me to say the man isn’t there, then that would not be really a lie because I wouldn’t be speaking against my mind.
And following our conscience is important too.
Maybe just generally, we have to take to heart what yesterday’s Scriüpture said about not planning beforehand what we will say, but letting the Holy Spirit lead us?
That thought is comforting.
Kathrin
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curtishouse29
Guest
How about this? Is it a sin to lie to your children that Santa Claus exists? We are obviously deceiving our children so would we have to confess that sin?
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baltobetsy
Guest
I hope you’re kidding. But just in case you’re not, do a search on this forum and also Family Life for “Santa Claus,” and you’ll find very long discussions of this held in previous years.
And go watch “Miracle on 34th Street.”
Betsy
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