Making sense of Papal Claims

[Reformed_Rob]

Hello,

This is my first real post, and though it regards Popes, I’m not wanting to infer or bring up discussion about “sedavacantism.” I’m hoping I can learn more about the Papacy, and not be led astray by claims many people make.
Many anti-Catholic fundamentalists come up with quotes that seem to lead to the conclusion that the Catholic church is cognizant of it’s being the “anti-Christ” here on earth. I’m not saying I think that, but that’s what they think. However, you get the idea that they pull those quotes from the context without acknowledging the complete context. Here are three brief quotes:

“finally, thou art another God on earth.” (Christopher Marcellus, oration at Lateran V)

“Hence the Pope is crowned with the triple crown, as king of heaven and earth and the lower regions.” (Lucius Ferraris “Papa” some book called the Prompta Bibliotheca)

“But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…” Pope Leo XIII Apostolic Exhortation Reunion of Christendom.

The only one of those I really care about is Pope Leo’s. I tried to find the one from the guy at the fifth Lateran Council, but after searching some, I couldnt find it. And the one about the Tiara, I can understand that, but now the Pope does’nt even wear it. Was it Paul VI that stopped that? Too bad.
But, I did find the complete text of “Reunion of Christendom” and it is, like I guess all of Leo XIII’s letters, marvelous. That sentence above goes on “… place of God Almighty, who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Ok, here’s my take on it. Having a respect for Pope Leo XIII, I sincerely doubt he means “I’m like the incarnation of God here on earth.” Come on, no way!
Psalm 82 comes to mind, “I said, ’ you are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High’”. So governmental authority could be a big part of it. That’s the primary point of that Psalm, at least from what I understand (John 10:34). But there’s probably more. I’ll get to my question in a minute.

Understanding that in the Catholic view, just as the highest "court" of heaven is the "court of the Trinity" so is the highest "court" of earth the "court of the Vicar of Christ, the Pope."  And Christ is properly called "God" in that He was divine, but not only divine, but human, and the 2 natures perfectly united in one person as St. Cyril explains.  And though the Pope is not "divine" in anyway, he could be said perhaps to hold on earth an authority that God holds over all His creation.  Limited, of course, but true authority since it comes from the Godhead.

So here’s my 2 questions:

Is it proper to say that the Pope holds authority as God on earth?

To what extent should the Catholic believe that the Pope is “another God on earth?”

 

[Chuck]

God is revealed to us through the Pope as the Pope submits his will to God. How else could he have the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

The Pope’s authority is not of himself but from God. He is God on earth in that, to us, he is a manifestation of God’s will.

Just my thoughts as a convert to the Church and still learning and appreciating the rightful understanding of the Church and the Pope.

Chuck

 

[Apologia100]

Chuck:

God is revealed to us through the Pope as the Pope submits his will to God. How else could he have the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

The Pope’s authority is not of himself but from God. He is God on earth in that, to us, he is a manifestation of God’s will.

Just my thoughts as a convert to the Church and still learning and appreciating the rightful understanding of the Church and the Pope.

Chuck

Exactly correct Chuck. Good short, concise, accurate answer.

 

[The_Barrister]

Chuck:

God is revealed to us through the Pope as the Pope submits his will to God. How else could he have the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

The Pope’s authority is not of himself but from God. He is God on earth in that, to us, he is a manifestation of God’s will.

Just my thoughts as a convert to the Church and still learning and appreciating the rightful understanding of the Church and the Pope.

Chuck

Good!

I’m reminded of Jesus chastising PIlate, telling him that “Thou shouldst not have any power against me, unless it were given thee from above.” (John 19:11, Douay-Rheims version).

 

[metal1633]

Reformed Rob:

Is it proper to say that the Pope holds authority as God on earth?

To what extent should the Catholic believe that the Pope is “another God on earth?”

Yes to the first question but only within the bounds of Gods will. He cannot redefine the Godhead in such a way that God is no longer defined as a Trinity. The Church, in its definitions, is guided by the Hoy Spirit.

As to the second question…

How much Authority did Christ give to His Church when he gave it the Authority to speak in His Name? All Authority in Heaven and Earth is the Lords. And in His Name the Church, with the Pope as “Chairman of the Board”, can use that Authority to Bind and Loose. “What ever thou shalt ask in my Name” “Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

 

[francisca]

Chuck:

God is revealed to us through the Pope as the Pope submits his will to God. How else could he have the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

The Pope’s authority is not of himself but from God. He is God on earth in that, to us, he is a manifestation of God’s will.

Just my thoughts as a convert to the Church and still learning and appreciating the rightful understanding of the Church and the Pope.

Chuck

Yes I agree to this. So when a pope doesn’t care about God’s will (God’s will is our salvation), then, usually his contribution is mainly in “temporal matters” such as politics, jurisdiction, papal
states, and all kinds of authorithy of the world.

Even so, God can use “temporal matters” to teach us Heavenly affairs just as the early Israel people learn about Heaven from a
teaching about “promised land in Palestine”.

So we walk on earth as a citizen of a state, but actually we are citizen of Heaven, provided we trust Jesus is The King !

God bless us all.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

metal1633:

. The Church, in its definitions, is guided by the Hoy Spirit.

Thanks for the responses.

Metal 1633, in regards to your statement, I’m wondering something. Namely, why in the world do people say things like that, and thus give the flaming Anti-Catholics such ammunition to fire right back at you Catholics?

As Nicea one says " The Catholic Church only approves that which is above reproach" , why would some Catholics be so loose with their tongues in saying things that are clearly interpreted by people who have any knowledge of Scripture at all to say “well, that’s blasphemous!” Can you tell me anything that Moses or Aaron said that is similar to any of the “Pope is as to God as whatever a good Catholic analogy would be” that we are discussing. Maybe, like texts you’ll find in the major prophets, Jesus is referred to when referring to “the throne of David” and the Pope is like David, so the Pope is like Jesus. I can follow that. For instance, Ezekiel 36:24-28. But I didn’t mean to present an argument for the Papacy from Scripture!

Ok -, why say things that are easy to interpret in blasphemous ways? Remember, I’ve got Acts 12:18-23 in my mind.

 

[davidv]

Reformed Rob:

So here’s my 2 questions:

Is it proper to say that the Pope holds authority as God on earth?

Yes. And our best model for that authority is shown in the authority the the Old Testament “prime ministers” had when they spoke for, and acted on behalf of the king.
Reformed Rob:

To what extent should the Catholic believe that the Pope is “another God on earth?”

I don’t believe it. And the Church doesn’t teach it.

 

[Todd_Easton]

St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing about A.D. 107, explains why and how the bishop should be honored by the local Church, which also applies to why and how the leading bishop (the pope) should be honored by the world-wide Church, when he said, “For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household,* as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.” (To the Ephesians, ch. 6)
Elsewhere Ignatius said, “…your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters [priests] in the place of the assembly of the apostles…” (To the Magnesians, ch. 6)
And again Ignatius said, “… let all reverence … the bishop as Jesus Christ … and the presbyters [priests] as the … assembly of the apostles.” (To the Trallians, ch. 3)

Didn’t St. Paul praise the Christians of Galatia saying, “and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 4:14) ?

• (Luke 12:41-42 and Matthew 24.45)

 

[metal1633]

Reformed Rob:

Thanks for the responses.

Metal 1633, in regards to your statement, I’m wondering something. Namely, why in the world do people say things like that, and thus give the flaming Anti-Catholics such ammunition to fire right back at you Catholics?

As Nicea one says " The Catholic Church only approves that which is above reproach" , why would some Catholics be so loose with their tongues in saying things that are clearly interpreted by people who have any knowledge of Scripture at all to say “well, that’s blasphemous!” Can you tell me anything that Moses or Aaron said that is similar to any of the “Pope is as to God as whatever a good Catholic analogy would be” that we are discussing. Maybe, like texts you’ll find in the major prophets, Jesus is referred to when referring to “the throne of David” and the Pope is like David, so the Pope is like Jesus. I can follow that. For instance, Ezekiel 36:24-28. But I didn’t mean to present an argument for the Papacy from Scripture!

Ok -, why say things that are easy to interpret in blasphemous ways? Remember, I’ve got Acts 12:18-23 in my mind.

Well it is not blaspheme. To claim the Pope is “another god” would be but we dont claim that. The Ministerial Priesthood, of which the Pope is the earthly head, stands in the place of Christ and is representitive of Him. They are Ambassadors with all rights and privliges to speak authoritativly in His Name. As to a scriptural analogy just look to Exodus where Moses was to be as God and Aaron his Prophet.

Exodus 7:1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2 Thou shalt speak to him all that I command thee; and he shall speak to Pharao, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Disobedience to Moses or Arron was the equivalent of disobeying GOD.

Its common among protestants to reject a Ministerial Priesthood. They only accept the common Priesthood of all believers and the High Priesthood of the Lord. Forgetting or refusing to acknowledge the Ministerial Priesthood which is also established by God. No longer that of Arron though, but of Melchizedek. It serves the High Priest, our Lord and Savior Christ, and represents Him to His People. And Offers His Sacrifice in the Clean Oblation spoken of by Malachi.

Jude warned Christians not to fall into the rebellion of Korah. That is what most of protestantism has done.

 

[GAssisi]

“WHOEVER LISTENS TO YOU LISTENS TO ME,” said the God-man

Greg

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Thanks guys for those very insightfur last few replies! Galatians 4:14 and Exodus 7, I’ll remember those!

Yeah, as to Protestants rejecting the Catholic priesthood, I first was introduced to that by St. Francis de Sales in his excellent work “The Catholic Controversy.” That book actually made Catholicism a serious issue with me. And I realized reading through Scripture the other day, that Korah’s rebellion wasn’t so much a rebellion against Moses as it was a rebellion against God’s annointed succession of Priests, through the line of Amram, son of Kohath, son of Levi.

Thanks again for your responses