Manual sex and impotence

[TruthSkr]

Although this is not currently a problem for me I am concerned about it as I understand that as many as 40% of all men experience it at sometime in life. I recently read “Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West, an excellent book that answered almost every question I ever had about sex and Catholic marriage. In the book it is stated that seeking orgasm apart from intercourse is always wrong. The author goes on to state that he could not comprehend any reason why someone would want to have orgasm apart from intercourse unless he was trying to avoid the risk of becoming a father. He states “there was simply no other substantial reason”. Well, supposing you would love to have intercourse with your wife but were simply not able to because of some physical defect or because it was too painful for your wife? Does the moral code of the church forbid a married couple from having any type of sexual imtimacy such as could be experienced through manual or oral sex when intercourse is not possible or is too painful for one’s spouse?

 

[THurifer2]

Well, supposing you would love to have intercourse with your wife but were simply not able to because of some physical defect or because it was too painful for your wife? Does the moral code of the church forbid a married couple from having any type of sexual imtimacy such as could be experienced through manual or oral sex when intercourse is not possible or is too painful for one’s spouse?

Huh? if it were painful for the woman then it is not LOVE making…PERIOD. dont kid yourself manual stimulation and oral sex are a ONE sided affair. Excuse my over graphic nature but the female sexual “nerve” does not reside in a womans mouth for reason that she cannot concieve via her mouth. GOD MADE THE MOUTH for many things eating, talking and drinking…It is not a vagina replacement. Neither is the womans hand. A woman is not a ROBOT or an object for a man to reach “climax”. Women are above that. “getting off” is not the focus…sharing in Gods creative Love is.

 

[cargopilot]

THurifer2, I don’t think you SHOUTED enough at the OP. Your reply appears excessively shrill and I know you really didn’t intend to come off that way, particularly towards a brand-new poster. Your answer, while technically partially correct, could have been phrased a little friendlier and less as the response someone might give when personally attacked. Again, I’m sure you didn’t intend to sound ranting, it just appears that way.

Hello TruthSkr, Let me personally welcome you. I know you’ll have fun and learn all kinds of stuff. (Like how to take a punch)

Let me address your question on impotence. Impotence affects males, and you’re right, it will likely become increasingly more of a factor, as you age. There are a number of solutions that the married couple can employ, including manual and oral stimulation, but as always, we must, at least intend to finish in the normal way. If, for some reason, the marital act becomes too painful for either person, assessment must be made. There is either not enough time spent in foreplay, something medical or something psychological going on. In any case, the couple should seek resolution.

Perhaps, when you asked about painful intercourse, you were referring to the husband’s ‘slowness’ as a source of pain for the wife. In this case, additional foreplay would be necessary to more closely ‘time’ the husband’s completion of the marital act with the wife’s comfort level.

If by “painful intercourse” for the wife you were referring to vaginismus, she would need to seek medical or psychological attention. I can’t think of many things that would cause pain, that couldn’t be fixed, somehow.

Let me assure you that E.D. as seen on TV, isn’t the end of the world and medication is probably over prescribed. I can’t speak for the other wives, but happily, mine seems to accept my aging body, as is.

 

[THurifer2]

THurifer2, I don’t think you SHOUTED enough at the OP. Your reply appears excessively shrill and I know you really didn’t intend to come off that way, .

Sorry but the subject of “replacement” pleasure really touches my nerves. such acts in my mind are extremely degrading to the woman. I cannot fathom asking my wife to do such things…the two shall become one…which to me means if my wife is unable to physically have or enjoy intercourse then WE are unable and it is a cross that we both are expected to bear as a couple.

 

[TruthSkr]

Dear cargopilot,

Thank you for your kind and thoughful response. I can understand THurifer2’s objections, given his background, but as a newcomer I am much more receptive to a little compassion and understanding. Harshness is just what drove my wife away from the Catholic church and I have been praying and working very hard for many years to convince her to come back.

I was hoping to avoid discussing the cause of my wife’s pain because it’s a bit uncomfortable to talk about, but it seems that if I am to resolve this issue I must explain. A few years ago I developed a condition known as Peyronies Disease that causes a bend in the penis during erection. I have had medical treatment for this and it has improved a bit, but still causes her a certain amount of discomfort during intercourse. Sometimes she experiences pleasure, sometimes pain, but she prefers to have intercourse at this time, rather than not because she also feels the need for closeness. I’m just not sure how this condition will progress in the future and would like to know how to prepare for whatever may be. At this point the only treatment for my condition that would eliminate the problem is surgery, but the surgery is risky and my wife refuses to agree to it because of the risks.

 

[1ke]

Well, supposing you would love to have intercourse with your wife but were simply not able to because of some physical defect or because it was too painful for your wife? Does the moral code of the church forbid a married couple from having any type of sexual imtimacy such as could be experienced through manual or oral sex when intercourse is not possible or is too painful for one’s spouse?

In those cases, one is called to continence until and unless the condition is resolved.

 

[rwoehmke]

In those cases, one is called to continence until and unless the condition is resolved.

I wouldn’t even try to contradict this statement and at 71 I have no problem with having to be continent. However for young people, while it is easy to say, it is not so easy to do. No doubt it can be done and probably it is possible to follow this path, but except in the highly motivated I would expect there to be many falls and many needs to get up again and go on. It is a heavy cross to bear and any success at all will require lots of prayer and learning to love and show love without the physical expression of ones sexuality. We need as a Church to pray for faithful couples caught in this Catch 22. I can only imagine for some, maybe many, it would be like purgatory on earth.

 

[PennitentMan]

I wouldn’t even try to contradict this statement and at 71 I have no problem with having to be continent. However for young people, while it is easy to say, it is not so easy to do. No doubt it can be done and probably it is possible to follow this path, but except in the highly motivated I would expect there to be many falls and many needs to get up again and go on. It is a heavy cross to bear and any success at all will require lots of prayer and learning to love and show love without the physical expression of ones sexuality. We need as a Church to pray for faithful couples caught in this Catch 22. I can only imagine for some, maybe many, it would be like purgatory on earth.

Ahmen, rwoehmke.

Thank you for that great post.

While it’s very easy to talk about continence, it’s very very tough to follow and remain faithful 100% of the time.
It can get extremely difficult - ask me, I’m living it.

 

[TruthSkr]

Now that I have had time to absorb the responses to my question I would like to bring up a related issue. It has to do with the answers I received to my question when posed to my parish priests.

My condition evolved over the past four years, and as it did I discussed it on four occasions with the priests in my parish in the confessional. The first time I asked about it, it was with our Monsignor, a very intelligent and well respected man who has been the head of our parish for more than 30 years. In response to the question “if the only way my wife and I could experience any type of sexual intimacy was through manual sex, do you thing God would understand?”, he simply said “yes, I think so.”

The second time I discussed it with another of our parish priests in the confessional the response I received was that manual sex is acceptable in marriage so long as it concludes in the proper way. His suggestion was to come as close to my wife as possible at the time of climax and to ejaculate on or as close to her genitals as possible.

The third time I had this discussion it was with a priest who was visiting our parish to provide extra help in the confessional. His response was that due to a special provision in the Church special exceptions could be made for certain circumstances. He felt that my situation warranted an exception.

The last and fourth time I had this discussion in the confessional I chose the priest in our parish who had a reputation for frightening some of our parishioners with his honest but blunt style of confrontation. The reason I chose him was because I wanted to know the truth, no matter how painful it might be, because I have come to belive that if you “seek the truth, the truth will set you free”. His response was that he was not very well versed in the type of problem I had presented him with, but he did say that because of my age at the time (59) he assumed that my child rearing days were over and he said that I seemed to be handling the situation the best way I knew how, given the circumstances.

So now that I have given all these responses you may ask, why am I still asking about this subject? Why was I not content to hear the answers most people would want to hear, and to hear them four times in a row? The reason is because I really did want to know the truth. What these four priests told me was the easy way out, but somehow it just seemed too easy. It seemed to conflict with what I had heard elsewhere. What really disturbs me is that there seems to be no consistent place to really find the truth from the Catholic Church on issues such as this. How are the masses to be properly educated when the responses to an issue like this are so varied? All the priests in my parish and a visiting priest say that manual sex is OK in my situation, but everone at this web site says no. Whom do I believe?

 

[blessedtoo]

So now that I have given all these responses you may ask, why am I still asking about this subject?

I just have to say God bless you for your earnest pursuit of the truth. I too have found myself second guessing my priests on other issues that are of concern for me. It is such a sad commentary on the state of our Church that we feel so unsure of the guidance we recieve from the clergy.

My hunch is that the answers these questions were probably universally understood and taught back in the old days and perhaps did not necessarily need such direct explanations and extrapolation. I also think that back in the day, sexual activity like we understand it in our current culture was probably not the norm. I know my parent’s generation did not concern themselves with such things as oral “sex”, mutual masturbation, toys, etc. These practices were not considered “moral and acceptable” as they supposedly are today.

As an aside, I was so intrigued by your post that I googled your condition. I read that this condition often corrects itself after a period of time. Is this something you can expect or hope for?

 

[TruthSkr]

I read that this condition often corrects itself after a period of time. Is this something you can expect or hope for?

During the first year there was a little bleeding for my wife as well as pain. Today there is just a little pain for her and more pleasure. I pray for continued improvement, however I have come to realize that during the time we could not come together I learned self control and self mastery which has been a benefit to me as well as my wife. God has a purpose for all things. Many thanks to all who posted replies to my questions. It’s good to have a place like this to seek help with difficult issues. The kind and compassionate answers given to me are much appreciated.

 

[drburle]

I just have to say God bless you for your earnest pursuit of the truth. I too have found myself second guessing my priests on other issues that are of concern for me. It is such a sad commentary on the state of our Church that we feel so unsure of the guidance we recieve from the clergy.

My hunch is that the answers these questions were probably universally understood and taught back in the old days and perhaps did not necessarily need such direct explanations and extrapolation. I also think that back in the day, sexual activity like we understand it in our current culture was probably not the norm. I know my parent’s generation did not concern themselves with such things as oral “sex”, mutual masturbation, toys, etc. These practices were not considered “moral and acceptable” as they supposedly are today.

I love the catholic church, but I believe sometimes priest even though well intentioned try to appease (human nature) parishoners based off of personal human feelings. Normally as a rule if you have reserved feelings of guilt (holy spirit) it is wrong and this is speaking from personal experience. Is it just me or does things seem more luke warm nowadays versus hot and cold? I pray the church overall becomes better communicators. Just look on Saturday afternoons no one is going to confession anymore. I know I am not the only sinner out there. Young Catholics don’t understand the importance of confession, purity, and other important doctrine. This is my own personal observations and experiences maybe its just in the area that I grew up in and live. Long story short I think your hunch is right there was less gray area.

 

[cargopilot]

…The second time I discussed it with another of our parish priests in the confessional the response I received was that manual sex is acceptable in marriage so long as it concludes in the proper way. His suggestion was to come as close to my wife as possible at the time of climax and to ejaculate on or as close to her genitals as possible.

This answer seems to be the most workable one, to me. It seems to fulfill all of the requirements the marital act. It would enable you and your wife to enjoy the unifying element of the marital act, as well as remaining as open to life to the extent you are able. Practiced in this way, I would argue that your INTENT is in no way, an avoidance of the openness to life element. If this method is the most comfortable and enjoyable way both of you can can enjoy the marital act, how could God not be pleased with your adaptation?

 

[blessedtoo]

During the first year there was a little bleeding for my wife as well as pain. Today there is just a little pain for her and more pleasure. I pray for continued improvement, however I have come to realize that during the time we could not come together I learned self control and self mastery which has been a benefit to me as well as my wife. God has a purpose for all things. Many thanks to all who posted replies to my questions. It’s good to have a place like this to seek help with difficult issues. The kind and compassionate answers given to me are much appreciated.

Praise the Lord! I was under the impression from the little bit I read that the afflicted man also experiences pain from this condition. It said that it can and often does lessen or disappear with time.

Have you posted your question in the Ask the Apologist section? Perhaps you might consider giving them a call on the phone. I feel pretty confident that you would get orthodox advice there. God bless!

 

[TruthSkr]

Praise the Lord! I was under the impression from the little bit I read that the afflicted man also experiences pain from this condition. It said that it can and often does lessen or disappear with time.

Have you posted your question in the Ask the Apologist section? Perhaps you might consider giving them a call on the phone. I feel pretty confident that you would get orthodox advice there. God bless!

I had some pain in the early stages, but that has long since left. It is just my wife who now experiences pain, but for only a few seconds at the time of climax, of all things, when the defomity exacerbates. This has been a real learning experience, and I try my best to look for the silver lining. I once read about a couple that could not have intercourse for about three years because of some type of medical condition of the wife. The challange of going without for such a long time actually brought the couple closer together as the love exibited by the husband’s patience resulted in the wife developing a great appreciation for having such a loving husband. I do understand the benefit of giving over taking, love vs. selfishness. I just want to do the right thing while at the same time not depriving ourselves unnecessarily.

I did post my question to Ask the Apologist when I first signed in at this site but did not receive a reply. I’ll hold off on the phone call for now as I feel fairly comfortable with the replies I received here to date.

 

[TruthSkr]

QUOTE, Posted by drburle: I love the catholic church, but I believe sometimes priest even though well intentioned try to appease (human nature) parishoners based off of personal human feelings. Normally as a rule if you have reserved feelings of guilt (holy spirit) it is wrong and this is speaking from personal experience. Is it just me or does things seem more luke warm nowadays versus hot and cold? I pray the church overall becomes better communicators.

Here is something interesting. For years the subject of artificial birth control dogged me. I could not understand the Catholic Church’s position on it and it was the one teaching that kept me from fully accepting the church. As a result I entered a bible study class at my local parish in hope of finding an answer to my confusion on this subject. During a question and answer sesssion late in the season I brought up my concerns and was given a collection of books and CD’s by Scott Hahn as well as a CD by Dr. Janet Smith entitled “Contraception, Why Not?”. This CD single handedly answered all my questions about this subject and completely turned around my thinking on it. I highly recomment this CD to all who are challanged by this subject. Anyway, part way through the CD the author mentions that priests who were schooled in the seminary in the 1960’s were taught to teach what they were told with no explanation necessary. As a result many rebelled from this style of teaching, preferring understanding and compassion over “do as I say because I said so”. And so the CD went on to say that as many as 39% of Catholic priests today acutally tell their parisoners that artificial birth control is matter of personal conscience. If we are to educate the masses than we must teach them, not just tell them what to do. “Because I said so” may work in certain situations, but it is far from being the best way to encourage people to do what is right.

 

[Jay2]

THurifer2…

You need to do some research, and educate yourself about human sexual biology!

There are numerous conditions (both Male & Female) that make “Webster’s & the Church’s definition” of intercourse near impossible due to pain or other factors.

Is a loving and happy couple supposed to fore-go the closeness and pleasure of mutual (or independent) orgasm together simply because they cannot put “Tab A into Slot B”?? They have every intent to do so, but the physiology prevents it. The couple finds other ways to please each other physically - while under the context of the “Marital Embrace”.

I find NO wrong. It is an expression of love in the best way their disability can muster.

 

[blessedtoo]

The challange of going without for such a long time actually brought the couple closer together as the love exibited by the husband’s patience resulted in the wife developing a great appreciation for having such a loving husband. I do understand the benefit of giving over taking, love vs. selfishness. I just want to do the right thing while at the same time not depriving ourselves unnecessarily.

Your insight illustrates that you have a clear understanding of the true meaning of the marital relationship. It transcends biology, anatomy, and “tabs and slots”. It is much more than the fleeting pleasure of “mutual orgasm” or the quest to fulfill intimacy through the sexual medium. True intimacy is really supernatural and is more often experienced out of bed rather than in it. When you consider how much time you spend with your wife outside the bedroom, the opportunities to express intimacy are limitless. Women often find themselves deeply fulfilled in the “little things” their husbands do. I think those are the moments women remember most.

Dr. Janet Smith entitled “Contraception, Why Not?”. This CD single handedly answered all my questions about this subject and completely turned around my thinking on it.

That CD did it for me also. It’s amazing how clear the truth is when you keep your heart and mind open.