Marcial Maciel?!

[roelblomsma]

This is the founder the Legion of Christ. Charged and convicted of sexual abuse against children and seminarists, addicted to various drugs, having 2 families (one in Spain and one in Mexico) and convicted of raping even his own boys.

The verdict of the Vatican -a life of pray and penitence in the Vatican. Pope John Paul aparently knew about the fact that he had a familie, but the Legion of Christ brought in a lot of money, so he let him be… Are you kidding me!!!

I am a Catholic, but I’m not sure how I can assimilate these cases. I can’t convince myself that this is in any way possible or acceptable. I understand that the church preaches against gay sex and marriages, so how come this sick sick criminal is allowed to retire in the Vatican.

I understand that Faith and the clergy are two diffent things. Nevertheless, the clergy presents the Church, which supposedly is the bride of God. Why should I even go to mass in an institute that allows such things to happen? I really struggle with this. How serious can you take a priest knowing he forms part of this same clergy?

Please don’t come with anwers as…it’s probably don’t true… or… it doesn’t happen too much. Pope Benedict XVI convicted the guy himself and I’m sure the case mentioned in the Netherlands, Belgium and Ireland are also true.

 

[kmaaj]

I am going to stab a guess here, based on what I know to be true in much smaller profile cases. Anyone can correct me if they know the real facts.

Maciel was most likely given a choice: spend the rest of his days in seclusion and penance or be cast out. He chose the former.

Maciel was no friend of then Cardinal Ratzinger, it was a 1st order of business of highest priority for the newly elected Pope Benedict XVI to bring Maciel down.

 

[CaptainPicard]

“The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.” Matt 23:2-3

Jesus taught that the Pharisees should be followed because they sat on the seat of Moses, even though they weren’t the greatest guys. Their evil acts were not an excuse to take oneself out from under their authority. Jesus later would leave the Church in the care of the apostles, even though they were sometimes cowards, sinners, proud, hypocritical, etc.

Down through the ages, members of the Church leadership have done terrible things. With any Church or organization you belong to, you’ll be following some degree of sinner. There’s no getting around it.

But the Church keeps going in spite of evil acts from her leadership and members (you and I are also guilty of evil, let’s not forget). Since you aren’t going to find a Church with a sinless membership, you might as well belong to the Church Christ founded. She is still your mother!

 

[LilyM]

St Peter and St Paul were clergy too. One denied Christ (AFTER receiving Holy Orders, no less) and the other persecuted Him. And I don’t even need mention Judas.

The fact that some priests are sinners, even heinous sinners, should neither surprise nor distress you. It should simply make you all the more grateful for God’s grace which supplies what is lacking in the weak and sinful human natures of our priests (and all are weak and sinful humans).

God designed it so, from OT times (note that all His greatest champions - Abraham, Jacob, Moses, King David, King Solomon - all also had their share of sins and weakness.)

 

[InSearchofGrace]

No question, Fr. Maciel was “the very antithesis of Christian chastity, veracity and integrity.” The Vatican issued a tough denunciation of his crimes and deception. He passed away in January 2008 in a state beyond disgrace.

The Reform of the Legionaries of Christ

The 3rd and 4th paragraphs discuss how Fr. Maciel used deception and manipulation for decades, as investigations revealed, and how one Vatican figure (Cardinal Ratzinger) was impervious to his charm back in the 1990’s. As now Pope Benedict XVI, he has been busy cleaning house, meeting the clergy abuse scandal head on with Church acknowledgment of the delay in decisive corrections and apology and reparations to the victims of abuse.

No profession or calling in life is immune to human failings, sometimes gross failings.

In one of Father Corapi’s talks, he addressed the topic of Catholics leaving the Church because of what some priests did. He drew from his personal experience with two physicians who were performing cardiac surgeries without indication, for pure profit. IOW, doctors who were intentionally doing harm to patients, violating the Hippocratic oath. His involvement led to a class action suit that took four years. Notwithstanding the bad experience, Fr. Corapi said it would be foolish if he did not seek medical care from doctors when he needs it, so he still does. It’s the same with the law profession, he added.

Fr. Corapi asks the faithful not to have an emotional response to the clergy abuse scandal in the Church. If Catholics stay away from the Church because of the action of some priests, we would be denying ourselves spiritual food, the Mass and the Eucharist. Further, Church teachings are inerrant even if some priests are errant.
. . . . .

 

[NHInsider]

I am going to stab a guess here, based on what I know to be true in much smaller profile cases. Anyone can correct me if they know the real facts.

Maciel was most likely given a choice: spend the rest of his days in seclusion and penance or be cast out. He chose the former.

Maciel was no friend of then Cardinal Ratzinger, it was a 1st order of business of highest priority for the newly elected Pope Benedict XVI to bring Maciel down.

Actually, given the sad reality of recidivism among pedophiles, I think it might be an appropriate response for the Church to create a penitential monastery in which she could confine pedophile priests. They could fast and pray for their own forgiveness and for the restoration of those they have injured. Laicizing them and releasing them to continue to prey on the vulnerable seems like washing our hands of the problem. Keeping Maciel away from the world is a good model, I think.

 

[roelblomsma]

I am going to stab a guess here, based on what I know to be true in much smaller profile cases. Anyone can correct me if they know the real facts.

Maciel was most likely given a choice: spend the rest of his days in seclusion and penance or be cast out. He chose the former.

Maciel was no friend of then Cardinal Ratzinger, it was a 1st order of business of highest priority for the newly elected Pope Benedict XVI to bring Maciel down.

It’s good that Pope Benedict did, but even so, I mean, two years in seclusion…? Is that a proper punishment for his crimes. A poor man who steals is a bad thing but understandable, a police officer that steals I consider as twice as bad. Now, a sick gay or pedofile who commits an sexual offence is one thing, but a priest with so much reckognition in the Church…I should be considered as satans number one buddy. He offended not only the Church and all her members, but committed a crime so evil and nasty that, at least for my account, he should’ve gone to a prison for very dangerous and sick people. Two years of praying doesn’t seem to be a proper response of the Vatican.

 

[kmaaj]

two years in seclusion…? Is that a proper punishment for his crimes. .

No, the rest of his days. Which happened to be 2 years.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I hope you all know that Father Maciel is dead. He died in 2008.

So he is not here to defend himself.

It was horrid what he did, breaking his priestly vows. But it’s up to God to judge him, which He did at his particular judgement when he died.

I was a supporter of the Legionaries of Christ for many years. I didn’t send large amounts of money when I donated, just small ‘virgin’s mites’ [as opposed to the ‘widow’s mite’ in the Gospels]. I attended two of the Professions Masses in Cheshire, CT [1999 and 2006], and I had a Legionary priest and seminary brother visit me in my home in 2006. They were real gentlemen!

So let’s not tear down the undoubtedly good work that the LCs have done all these years because of the sins of their ‘father’. I pray every day that the work that is going on with the Vatican and the Apostolic Visitator will result in a new and better Legion of Christ.

 

[roelblomsma]

“The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.” Matt 23:2-3

Sure, but one thing is to be a sinner and do some improper things. Another is to be a pedofile, a homosexual, and a priest that has two families and a number of illegitimate things. I don’t think Jesus was refering to those cases. I mean, He said. “If you only look at another woman, take out your right eye.” So I can only imagine what He would have said to Marcial. Take out your right eye, left eye, cut your hands off, and dismember yourself.

Jesus taught that the Pharisees should be followed because they sat on the seat of Moses, even though they weren’t the greatest guys. Their evil acts were not an excuse to take oneself out from under their authority. Jesus later would leave the Church in the care of the apostles, even though they were sometimes cowards, sinners, proud, hypocritical, etc.

Still the same thing. One thing is to be proud or a coward. Another thing is to rape little boys. Also, I understand that the Pope is infallible. I think John Paul II a great great man and a true follower of Christ in all ways, but I don’t understand why he let Marcial go on and on. Did he know? Was he misinformed? In case he did know, Id’ certainly be a bit disappointed.

Also, what spiritual or religious authorty has someone over me that follows satan in his most evil ways. I do respect priests, but if I would find out some priest that I know has committed these crimes, I’d spit him in the face and kick him, for he isn’t a follower of Christ but of satan.

Down through the ages, members of the Church leadership have done terrible things. With any Church or organization you belong to, you’ll be following some degree of sinner. There’s no getting around it.

I do struggle with that. I maintain my Catholic faith because after all the objectives that I have considered, I can always find an answer to remain a Catholic. I have no doubt. But why should I follow a bunch of sinners as my spiritual leaders? The collective conscience of the clergy throughout history is as black as the deepest pit of Hell.

But the Church keeps going in spite of evil acts from her leadership and members (you and I are also guilty of evil, let’s not forget). Since you aren’t going to find a Church with a sinless membership, you might as well belong to the Church Christ founded. She is still your mother!

I don’t think Jesus intended to iniciate such a church. For respect of our lord, this can’t be happening.

 

[roelblomsma]

St Peter and St Paul were clergy too. One denied Christ (AFTER receiving Holy Orders, no less) and the other persecuted Him. And I don’t even need mention Judas.

The fact that some priests are sinners, even heinous sinners, should neither surprise nor distress you. It should simply make you all the more grateful for God’s grace which supplies what is lacking in the weak and sinful human natures of our priests (and all are weak and sinful humans).

God designed it so, from OT times (note that all His greatest champions - Abraham, Jacob, Moses, King David, King Solomon - all also had their share of sins and weakness.)

This is true, but almost impossible to understand. Even so, I think the Vatican should be a bit harsher as it comes to these kinds of offends. It cannot be that we preach about the sins of gays etc, but that a pedofile drug addict priest gets a little slap on the hand.

 

[roelblomsma]

No question, Fr. Maciel was “the very antithesis of Christian chastity, veracity and integrity.” The Vatican issued a tough denunciation of his crimes and deception. He passed away in January 2008 in a state beyond disgrace.

The Reform of the Legionaries of Christ

The 3rd and 4th paragraphs discuss how Fr. Maciel used deception and manipulation for decades, as investigations revealed, and how one Vatican figure (Cardinal Ratzinger) was impervious to his charm back in the 1990’s. As now Pope Benedict XVI, he has been busy cleaning house, meeting the clergy abuse scandal head on with Church acknowledgment of the delay in decisive corrections and apology and reparations to the victims of abuse.

No profession or calling in life is immune to human failings, sometimes gross failings.

In one of Father Corapi’s talks, he addressed the topic of Catholics leaving the Church because of what some priests did. He drew from his personal experience with two physicians who were performing cardiac surgeries without indication, for pure profit. IOW, doctors who were intentionally doing harm to patients, violating the Hippocratic oath. His involvement led to a class action suit that took four years. Notwithstanding the bad experience, Fr. Corapi said it would be foolish if he did not seek medical care from doctors when he needs it, so he still does. It’s the same with the law profession, he added.

Fr. Corapi asks the faithful not to have an emotional response to the clergy abuse scandal in the Church. If Catholics stay away from the Church because of the action of some priests, we would be denying ourselves spiritual food, the Mass and the Eucharist. Further, Church teachings are inerrant even if some priests are errant.
. . . . .

That is true. We should not deny ourselves of our spiritual food.
As for Fr. Corapi. I think what is missing in his parallel example, is that if there would be a medical council that would oversee all physisians, they would inmediatly expell those guys and take them before a civil court. As for Marcial… a life of prayer…Well, let’s hope God will deal with this guy.

 

[Cristiano]

This is true, but almost impossible to understand. Even so, I think the Vatican should be a bit harsher as it comes to these kinds of offends. It cannot be that we preach about the sins of gays etc, but that a pedofile drug addict priest gets a little slap on the hand.

Why was it a little slap on the hand? The guys was told to go in seclusion and spend the rest of his days in penance. In secular terms that would equate to life in prison.

 

[kmaaj]

I think it might be an appropriate response for the Church to create a penitential monastery in which she could confine pedophile priests. .

There is one in the states. The link escapes me at the moment…I believe it is in a recluse part of upstate NY.

 

[LilyM]

Why was it a little slap on the hand? The guys was told to go in seclusion and spend the rest of his days in penance. In secular terms that would equate to life in prison.

For someone who is used to power, authority, influence and running his own organisation, such a restrictive way of living would be a hard cross indeed to bear.

Kinda like Bill Clinton being made to work behind the checkout in his local McDonalds for the rest of his life. Or at least being told he can’t give speeches, attend public events with Hilary, communicate with his influential friends, must give 50% of whatever money he earns to charity and that sort of thing.

 

[Philthy]

This is the founder the Legion of Christ. Charged and convicted of sexual abuse against children and seminarists,

 

[roelblomsma]

For someone who is used to power, authority, influence and running his own organisation, such a restrictive way of living would be a hard cross indeed to bear.

Kinda like Bill Clinton being made to work behind the checkout in his local McDonalds for the rest of his life. Or at least being told he can’t give speeches, attend public events with Hilary, communicate with his influential friends, must give 50% of whatever money he earns to charity and that sort of thing.

Really, I missed that. What happened with Bill Clinton?

 

[EricFilmer]

It’s good that Pope Benedict did, but even so, I mean, two years in seclusion…? Is that a proper punishment for his crimes. A poor man who steals is a bad thing but understandable, a police officer that steals I consider as twice as bad. Now, a sick gay or pedofile who commits an sexual offence is one thing, but a priest with so much reckognition in the Church…I should be considered as satans number one buddy. He offended not only the Church and all her members, but committed a crime so evil and nasty that, at least for my account, he should’ve gone to a prison for very dangerous and sick people. Two years of praying doesn’t seem to be a proper response of the Vatican.

I personally agree with the pope’s denunciation of Marcial Maciel, and I agree with your view that his actions were deserving of prison. But before someone can go to prison, they must first be subjected to a civil trial, and unfortunately I don’t think that ever happened with Maciel (at least I have not come upon the records of any such trial). It could be that in time he would have been put on trial but died before any such motions could come to bear. In any event, a criminal trial needs to be conducted by the civil authorities in the countries where the crimes were committed. In terms of civil law, the pope only has jurisdiction over Vatican City. Maybe the sentence of prayer and penance was the extent of what the pope could enforce upon Maciel (aside from laicizing him which, of course, would result in Maciel being free to live in society outside the control or observation of the Church).

 

[DavidFilmer]

How serious can you take a priest knowing he forms part of this same clergy?

Well, when you find a church where none of the clergy are sinners, please let us know. Because, in MY Church, every single priest (and Deacon, and Bishop, and Pope) is a sinner - and they will all tell you so.

 

[CaptainPicard]

Sure, but one thing is to be a sinner and do some improper things. Another is to be a pedofile, a homosexual, and a priest that has two families and a number of illegitimate things. I don’t think Jesus was refering to those cases. I mean, He said. “If you only look at another woman, take out your right eye.” So I can only imagine what He would have said to Marcial. Take out your right eye, left eye, cut your hands off, and dismember yourself.

Jesus actually tells us in the next few verses just how bad the Pharisees are. These verses are all about the Pharisees and occur in the same discourse as the one I quoted above.

“They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.”

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. **You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. **You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.”

"Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.”

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.”

" You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?"

“Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town,”

So let’s summarize. Jesus said that they will not be able to flee from judgment, that they keep others from heaven, they burden people, and Jesus also prophesies (rightly) that they will kill His wise men that He will send.
Also, let’s not forget that the Pharisees were behind the murder of Christ himself. Can you get worse than these guys?

And yet, Jesus still commanded those to whom He was speaking to listen to what the Pharisees were teaching, because they sat on the seat of Moses.