Marian dogmas: important and essential for our salvation?

[schaick]

The concerns I still have about the Marian devotions and theology are pretty simple. First of all, she isn’t mentioned by Paul or in the Epistles or Acts, etc. as an intercessor or the new Eve or the Ark or the chief intercessor, etc. that we see the CC talk about. Secondly, the early Church did talk about her role and compare her to the new Eve but the level of chief intercessor and the high level she has now was nowhere near what she was considered then? The Mary I see in Scripture is quiet, humble, and always, always, always points to Jesus “do what he says”…but in the appartitions, while still focused on her Son, she asks for people to make medals with her face on it, statues with her face, consecrate things to her and not Jesus, and things are more focused on her by her, less on Christ. I’m still looking into these apparitions and deciding how I feel about them. They sound like a different Mary to me sometimes. But the message is also powerful and deep, and the miracles evidenced by so many. Jury’s still out.

I hear you!!

This bothered me for many years, specifically the Madjurgore sitings.

I have many Catholic friends and could see how they didn’t understand some of the dangers associated with this. Also that some of the medals actually said with their instructions that it is the medal that contains the powers.

My Catholic friends were shocked when they read the wording and took the medal off immediately. Maybe that has changed now, I don’t know.

Anyway I prayed and stewed about it for a long time - should I believe - is it wrong? I was brought to tears. Then the Holy Spirit spoke to me. “It is not of your concern”

I realized right away that it was in fact the Holy Spirit speaking to me. No I do not have to believe it because my faith without all the extra stuff is very strong.

I was to not to cause any fellow Christians to stumbled- if they needed this extra stuff to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour- it was none of my concern.

AND if it is a false teaching then I am to do nothing about it- GOD will take care of it.

“It is not of your concern”

What is new to me though is the thought that the** Catholic Church might require people to believe all the Mariology dogmas to obtain salvation.**

 

[elvisman]

…just as an aside…were you aware that, in the response window, the program counts all the code as ‘words’ when doing word counts? That means that when you use as much coding as you do, you are actually writing a far longer post than it looks like, leaving very little room for someone to respond.

I found that out in a recent answer to you, where in order to have room to respond, I had to remove all your coding. I thought you might want to know that.

Or not.

As to THIS post, I have just one question.

How do you know that the church actually has all this authority?

That’s an easy one to answer. Jesus declared it:
Matt. 16:19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23

 

[elvisman]

None of us know what the **one true interpretation **of Revelations is at this point and we won’t until the events unfold.

Schaick -
What did Jesus tell the Apostles about the Church?
In Matt. 16:9, he gave Peter the power for bind and loose.
In Matt. 18:15-18, hell tells them that the Church is the final authority on earth.
**In Luke 10:16, he tells them that whoever listens to them, listens to HIM and whoever rejects them, rejects HIM. **
In John 16:12-15, he tells them that the Holy spirit will guide the Church to ALL truth.
When the church interprets the Scripture - she has the guarantee from Jesus that she will be right.
NO OTHER entity has that guarantee.

Some say the woman is the Church not Mary- in earlier Scriptures the woman is the symbol of all thoses called out. BUT the church does not give birth to Jesus.

I find it interesting that if this woman is Mary then she cryed out in pain as she gave birth. Why would this happen to Mary - a penalty of having the original sin?

Genesis 3
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.

But remember this was a Christian-Jew writting about the vision he had, not a Catholic Mary devotee.

The woman is Israel. Crown of 12 stars = 12 tribes of Israel.

The Woman IS Israel - AND Mary. This is what is known as “Polyvalent Symbolism” (multiple fulfillments of a single prophecy). **
Jesus came out of Israel and Jesus came from his mother, Mary. Mary and Joseph fled to the desert (Egypt) to escape Herod’s decree. The Woman in Revelation flees to the desert.

As for the pain in childbirth - these are the labor pains of Israel. Mary felt unimaginable pain as a sword pierced her heart “so that the thoughts of many would be revealed” (Luke 2:35).

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel from which Jesus came out of. They also represent the 12 Apostles - foundations of the Church and foundations of heaven.

By the way - this was a Catholic Jew who wrote this Book as were ALL of the writers of the NT.

Revelations 12
6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

The dragon focuses it’s fight against GOD’s people-Christians and Jews.

Revelation 12
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

I think everyone agrees the male child is Jesus.

**Yes, the male child IS Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

But these 2 are in heaven just not mentioned:

Hebrews 11
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Luke 23
42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

**Sure they are - but that’s not the point of the conversation. There are MANY others in heaven that aren’t mentioned - however, they aren’t united with their bodies yet. **

The question posed was how do we know that Mary was assumed into heaven? We know, not only from Sacred Tradition (John 16:12-15, 1 Thess. 2:15) but from that fact that she is represented in heaven as having a human body.

If somebody had asked about Enoch and Elijah - I would have pointed to the passages that said they were also assumed into heaven - but THAT wasn’t the question.**

Hope that clears things up.

 

[elvisman]

I hear you!!

This bothered me for many years, specifically the Madjurgore sitings.

I have many Catholic friends and could see how they didn’t understand some of the dangers associated with this. Also that some of the medals actually said with their instructions that it is the medal that contains the powers.

My Catholic friends were shocked when they read the wording and took the medal off immediately. Maybe that has changed now, I don’t know.

Anyway I prayed and stewed about it for a long time - should I believe - is it wrong? I was brought to tears. Then the Holy Spirit spoke to me. “It is not of your concern”

I realized right away that it was in fact the Holy Spirit speaking to me. No I do not have to believe it because my faith without all the extra stuff is very strong.

I was to not to cause any fellow Christians to stumbled- if they needed this extra stuff to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour- it was none of my concern.

AND if it is a false teaching then I am to do nothing about it- GOD will take care of it.

“It is not of your concern”

What is new to me though is the thought that the** Catholic Church might require people to believe all the Mariology dogmas to obtain salvation.**

In true Marian Apparitions - she always points to her son - ALWAYS. **

As for Medjugore - the Church doesn’t even recognize this as a true apparition, so that point is moot.

As for Guerny’s charge that Mary isn’t represented in the Bible as the New Eve of Ark of the New Covenant - he’s dead wrong. Read my response to him - post #280.

 

[kolchakTNS]

Gurney is not “dead wrong.” You interpret that reference from Revelation to mean that Mary is the “new Eve?” How? Where does it say that she is replacing Eve as a creature that instead of sinning against God she is the “new woman” who is without sin? That’s a stretch in my opinion. I can understand the interpretation of the “new Ark” in that she carried Christ in her womb. Gotcha on that one. The second one is not a no-brainer.

I don’t think it’s appropriate to tell another poster they’re “dead wrong.” Also, what’s the deal with the multiple colors on your posts? It’s distracting in a huge way!

In true** Marian Apparitions - she always points to her son - ALWAYS.

As for Medjugore - the Church doesn’t even recognize this as a true apparition, so that point is moot.

**As for Guerny’s **charge that Mary isn’t represented in the Bible as the New Eve of Ark of the New Covenant - he’s dead wrong. Read my response to him - post #280.

 

[elvisman]

Gurney is not “dead wrong.” You interpret that reference from Revelation to mean that Mary is the “new Eve?” How? Where does it say that she is replacing Eve as a creature that instead of sinning against God she is the “new woman” who is without sin? That’s a stretch in my opinion. I can understand the interpretation of the “new Ark” in that she carried Christ in her womb. Gotcha on that one. The second one is not a no-brainer.

I don’t think it’s appropriate to tell another poster they’re “dead wrong.” Also, what’s the deal with the multiple colors on your posts? It’s distracting in a huge way!

The problem with** your**** outlook on the Scriptures – as well as**** Guerny’s**** and all other Protestants, splintered sects and other factions - is that it**** differs**** from that of the custodian of the Scriptures and sole Authority here on earth – the Church.**

---

**Just as Eve was named Eve because she became “the mother of all the living” (Gen 3:20), it is not difficult to understand realize that Mary becomes “the mother of all living in Christ”. Jesus’ words from the cross “woman behold thy son” and “behold thy mother” of John’s Gospel can certainly be interpreted in this way.

**
If Jesus spoke these words only to tie up loose ends and make sure that his mother was cared for, they make NO sense in the light of the fact that He had plenty of time to make those provision for her. He knew far ahead of time He was to die.

---

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever he addresses his mother, he calls her “woman”. Anti-Catholics will point to this as proof that there was nothing special about Mary or that Jesus didn’t hold her in very high regard. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

---

Jesus defeats death on Calvary (Skull place) and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the woman. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary. **

---

Mary is the New Eve.**

---

Don’t kid yourself about the Church – there is only ONE (John 17). There aren’t 35,000 splintered factions of that Church – that’s not what Jesus established and prayed for on the night before his crucifixion.

---

So – any different or perverted understandings of Scripture (2 Pet. 3:16) ARE dead wrong.

 

[Nicea325]

The problem with** your**** outlook on the Scriptures – as well as**** Guerny’s**** and all other Protestants, splintered sects and other factions - is that it**** differs**** from that of the custodian of the Scriptures and sole Authority here on earth – the Church.**

---

Just as Eve was named Eve because she became “the mother of all the living” (Gen 3:20), it is not difficult to understand realize that Mary becomes “the mother of all living in Christ”. Jesus’ words from the cross “woman behold thy son” and “behold thy mother” of John’s Gospel can certainly be interpreted in this way.

If Jesus spoke these words only to tie up loose ends and make sure that his mother was cared for, they make NO sense in the light of the fact that He had plenty of time to make those provision for her. He knew far ahead of time He was to die.

---

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever he addresses his mother, he calls her “woman”. Anti-Catholics will point to this as proof that there was nothing special about Mary or that Jesus didn’t hold her in very high regard. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

---

Jesus defeats death on Calvary* (Skull place)* and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the woman. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

---

Mary is** the New Eve.

---

Don’t kid yourself about the Church – there is only ONE (John 17). There aren’t 35,000 splintered factions of that Church – that’s not what Jesus established and prayed for on the night before his crucifixion.

---

So – any different or perverted understandings of Scripture (2 Pet. 3:16) ARE dead wrong.

Amen…amen…brother!

 

[jmcrae]

As for Saul–what exactly was I supposed to get, religiously, as inspiration from the description of how David ambushed Saul?

Why do you suppose the Holy Spirit included it in the text of the Scriptures? The Scriptures exist for our spiritual benefit. If there is no spiritual benefit in knowing this about Saul, then why is it in the Bible?

And the question still remains - how, without a Bible, do you discern what belongs in the Bible, and what does not?

The Church did not have a Bible to look at, when they were discerning what belongs in the Bible, after all - so, how do you know they got it right?

 

[KathleenGee]

It affects me in a deep and personal way when I hear non-Catholics giving their spin and causing Catholics to remove their medals. They don’t get it, and they don’t see Mary’s role in the on going plan of salvation. I have read references saying that we are coming to the end of the Age of Mary, that will be followed by the Glory of the Holy Trinity.

I wear the Brown Scapular with the Miraculous Medal of Mary. I didn’t before until I felt overwhelmed by bad around me.

I remember while in grad school, working for a Neo Marxist Ph.D. candidate. We were going at it in disagreements…One day he offered to take me home. I was a caretaker for this big, older Catholic home. Then as we got up to the house, he said he wished he were not married…we walked up to the front porch and I did not like this situation. As I came to the glass door, it had a table inside facing out with pictures of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and rosaries on the dish.

The man stopped in his tracks and had a look of horror as he stared at the sacramentals on the desktop. Our work relationship ended immediately.

I have heard of testimonies of people wearing their miraculous medals in contact with various of individuals working against Christ and Christian society in past times. I prayed the rosary that day the Holy Father was shot in Rome, and some theological confusion I had from neo Marxist liberation theology finally let go of my faith.

Sacramentals, be they holy water, blessed salt and crucifixes, Marian medals, the various kinds of scapulars…as well as petitioning the protection of the Precious Blood of Jesus…are great protection against evil. I live in a city that has a history of high drug usage, malicious representation of good people in an indifferent society, and past common usage of the occult. I don’t like living here, it has had an adverse affect on the faith of Catholics who also dealt with the Klu Klux Klan here…

I just got a newsletter by someone who is a mystic and shares under the direction of his bishop. He said America has been the force to protect Christianity and justice…but sees it falling into a third world country. Christianity is the greatest block here, but we are so divided.

United we stand, divided we fall…and I pray to the Lord through the Blessed Mother to protect and provide and to restore our country.

For people to want to continue to disprove Mary, I am coming to the point it is their loss.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sorry, but you have just forbidden me to use one of the three very important steps that were specifically mentioned in that process of determining religious truth.

Reading also includes reading the context. “Pondering” includes study. How fair a ‘test’ is that, when all you have left me is quotes taken out of context (you haven’t even told me where any of these came from!)

That said, in the first two, there is obviously truth…and Truth…being expressed: to seek assistance through patience and prayer…and it’s hard unless one is humble? How can that NOT be true, no matter where it is found? Assuming, of course, that the target of that prayer is God the Father–but even if that’s not the context, taken out of context the way it is, one can certainly apply it that way–and it is then Truth.

OK, the second one is a little more problematic; define 'wanton looks," for instance? What in the world is the context here? Truth in this one would be in the ‘loving the sinner while reproving the sin’ aspect of it–and what is this about all the punishment stuff? That is bothering me a bit.

As for the third–hmn…well, if I had anything to do with caves, as in–living in them or storing things in them, I personally would prefer that he left it to relieve himself, rather than enter it to do so, but then again, we have a context problem. I don’t see a whole lot of religious Truth in going to the outhouse, but…

OK, now I’m going to google these.

Ah; the Quran, a letter from St. Augustine, and the OT.

HEre’s the problem with the ‘test’ you just set me, PRmerger: Truth is truth no matter where it is found. ARe you honestly going to claim that the idea of humility and patience in prayer is only true if it is mentioned in the BIBLE? Is that concept not true no matter who says it, or where?

As for St. Augustine, well, there is still truth regarding loving the sinner and hating the sin…

As for Saul–what exactly was I supposed to get, religiously, as inspiration from the description of how David ambushed Saul?

I think we’re talking about 2 different things–Truth and what’s* theopneustos*, diana.

Of course we can (indeed “must”) discern Truth through prayer, study, pondering, (yep, even by using google!)

What I am saying is that you have NO WAY of knowing what’s theopneustos, no matter how hard you prayed, studied and pondered these ancient Christian texts.

I asked you to tell me what verses were inspired, not what verses spoke Truth.

You need an outside authority, that is, the authority of the Catholic Church, in order to know this.

In fact, your search on google you proved my point. You could not discern from reading a text on your own what’s theopneustos.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Soldier_X]

Seeing that the OP has been suspended…

Yes he was. And then banned. Quite unjustly. Gurney was one of the all-time greats around here. Silencing his voice is ridiculous, unfair, and uncharitable. They ban decent people around here without any regard to their feelings. This Soldier finds it utterly disgusting.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes he was. And then banned. Quite unjustly. Gurney was one of the all-time greats around here. Silencing his voice is ridiculous, unfair, and uncharitable. They ban decent people around here without any regard to their feelings. This Soldier finds it utterly disgusting.

I sympathize with him and all other posters who had been banned. I would not know the exact reason why but it must get to do with the Forum’s rule. Contravening it, a poster may face the consequence. It is a pity but on the other hand, posters need to control themselves in delivering their posts so that action by the mods would be unnecessary, remembering that Forum’s owner/staff set the rule. Perhaps it is to maintain the integrity of the Forum’s objective. If we want to participate then follow the rule.

I do not believe the aim is to silence anyone’s voice. I thought CAF is one of the most open religious forums in the internet.

 

[Hesychios]

"There’s Something About Mary"

Realistically, what is important is Jesus Christ and what we believe about Him. It would still be important even if we never knew His mother’s name.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It affects me in a deep and personal way when I hear non-Catholics giving their spin and causing Catholics to remove their medals. They don’t get it, and they don’t see Mary’s role in the on going plan of salvation. I have read references saying that we are coming to the end of the Age of Mary, that will be followed by the Glory of the Holy Trinity.

I wear the Brown Scapular with the Miraculous Medal of Mary. I didn’t before until I felt overwhelmed by bad around me.

I remember while in grad school, working for a Neo Marxist Ph.D. candidate. We were going at it in disagreements…One day he offered to take me home. I was a caretaker for this big, older Catholic home. Then as we got up to the house, he said he wished he were not married…we walked up to the front porch and I did not like this situation. As I came to the glass door, it had a table inside facing out with pictures of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and rosaries on the dish.

The man stopped in his tracks and had a look of horror as he stared at the sacramentals on the desktop. Our work relationship ended immediately.

I have heard of testimonies of people wearing their miraculous medals in contact with various of individuals working against Christ and Christian society in past times. I prayed the rosary that day the Holy Father was shot in Rome, and some theological confusion I had from neo Marxist liberation theology finally let go of my faith.

Sacramentals, be they holy water, blessed salt and crucifixes, Marian medals, the various kinds of scapulars…as well as petitioning the protection of the Precious Blood of Jesus…are great protection against evil. I live in a city that has a history of high drug usage, malicious representation of good people in an indifferent society, and past common usage of the occult. I don’t like living here, it has had an adverse affect on the faith of Catholics who also dealt with the Klu Klux Klan here…

I just got a newsletter by someone who is a mystic and shares under the direction of his bishop. He said America has been the force to protect Christianity and justice…but sees it falling into a third world country. Christianity is the greatest block here, but we are so divided.

United we stand, divided we fall…and I pray to the Lord through the Blessed Mother to protect and provide and to restore our country.

For people to want to continue to disprove Mary, I am coming to the point it is their loss.

Kathleen. I feel your words,

Here’s inspiration for you,

1884 - Pope Leo XIII

On October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII was completing mass and as he walked away from the altar, he collapsed. When he awoke, he shared a vision. (The vision that Pope Leo XIII had became a reality 33 years to the day. It is known as the sun dancing in the heavens at Fatima in France.)

The actual vision that Pope Leo XIII had is as follows:

“I heard a noise in front of the Tabernacle. It was a confrontation between Jesus and Satan. Satan told Jesus if given time and power enough, he would destroy the church. Jesus asked in return, ‘How much time and how much power?’ Satan’s reply was one century and more influence over those who would follow him.” Pope Leo XIII said he heard Jesus say “So be it.” The 20th century was given to Satan as a time of testing. Pope Leo XIII was shaken by his experience and in response wrote the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, he gave the 20th Century to the Holy Spirit, and he wrote 13 encycles on the Rosary saying “The Rosary is the weapon that will defeat Satan.”

And if you read Pope Benedicts Homily on May 13 2010…He speaks on 1917-2017. And he mentions that we continue to Pray to will the Victory of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to the most Holy Spirit as this 100-years come to a close.

Our Blessed Mother is Truth. And when she said, In the end my Immaculate Heart will Triumph. I truly, honestly, most definitely believe her. So here we stand.

St Louis de Montfort spoke clearly on Our Lady and wearing of religious medals, rosarys etc. Its just smart, safe thinking in these, oh, so evil times. While many seem to reject this idea and believe its a fad or fashion statement? And question with a “They said” statement about what should and shouldn’t be worn? I disagree, I can’t help but believe its a sign from God seeing many wear Rosarys today. Should this become the fashion with a belief of God behind it? So be it! I am weary of anyone who rejects Mary, Marys echos God. When Mary is in question, God is in question. When you stick to that plan, your safe.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

"There’s Something About Mary"

Realistically, what is important is Jesus Christ and what we believe about Him. It would still be important even if we never knew His mother’s name.

But we do know His mother.

Yet the Carrying of the Cross, the Crucifixtion, the confrontation and trial with Pilot. Is what empowers me to stand for Christ.

The fact that his mother happens to be the God Bearer, and is one heck of a role model in herself. Just further inspires me.

God Bless, GT

BTW, how you been?

 

[Hesychios]

In true** Marian Apparitions - she always points to her son - ALWAYS.

It is not possible to distinguish true apparitions from false ones.

They might all be false.

As for Medjugore - the Church doesn’t even recognize this as a true apparition, so that point is moot.

Like so many others. That doesn’t make it false, it just means the church has not (up to this point) accepted it.

**As for Guerny’s **charge that Mary isn’t represented in the Bible as the New Eve of Ark of the New Covenant - he’s dead wrong. Read my response to him - post #280.

Your response is inadequate.

Guerney is right. The Bible actually says nothing on this, it is all exegesis.

In other words, it has to be interpreted to get what you want out of it. Often this is an exercise in poetic license, passages sometimes can be interpreted in any number of ways. The Fathers were accustomed, even from very early years, to give multiple interpretations to the same passages (sometimes ranging from the very literal to the extremely exotic) depending upon what they wanted to preach on at the time.

 

[Hesychios]

But we do know His mother.

We know her name, certainly.

It was Miriam, but we know her as Mary, the Holy Theotokos.

BTW, how you been?

Great, thanks!

Back from China now, I am settling into a new job in Chicago.