Mark 10:14

[oudave]

Hi-
This scripture get’s misquoted all the time, your reference to Mark
isn’t talking about baptism. Read Mark 10:13-14, Math 19:13-14 and Luke 18:15-16. Jesus was laying hands on them and blessing them, not baptizing them. I don’t think that infant and baptism are mentioned in the same sentence anywhere in scripture. I could be wrong though.

Each of us was born pure and innocent. That why Jesus said we must become like little children if we hope to enter his kingdom (Mathew 18:3). As we grew up we learned to do evil from those around us. Satan tempted us to do evil, even as he did Adam and Eve. We exercised our will power just as they did. When we did that which God has forbidden or when we failed to do that which he had told us to do we sinned. For that we are accountable and responsible (II Corinthians 5:10). It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin. I don’t believe thats in the Bible either, but I could be wrong there as well. I hope this helps you out.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

 

[jeffreedy789]

’ It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin.’

and you ‘know’ this because…

 

[TheGarg]

oudave:

It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin. I don’t believe thats in the Bible either, but I could be wrong there as well. I hope this helps you out.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

I agree with jeffreedy789, please clarify on your source for the “catholic church coming up with original sin” around 500 AD.:ehh:

Also, when you refer to the “Bible”, are you talking about the origianal Bible, created by the Catholic Church, or some recent[Martin Luther - present], reworked, shaved-down protestant version?

 

[Church_Militant]

The fact is, we never said this was about baptism, but from the context simply shows that children are welcomed by Jesus.

The imperative is the fact that Jewish babies were circumcised on the 8th day by the command of God and since Paul & Peter both compare baptism to circumcision, that we see the type and example. The fact that the parents had the child circumcised as an entrance into their faith and professed their faith on behalf of the child while accepting the responsibility of seeing that they were raised in their faith, carries over into Christianity. It’s as scriptural as “Train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.” The more relevent passages are those that show that entire households were baptised, which implies that people of all ages were included. If God commanded that babies be brought into the faith in the OT, why would that logical and family oriented practice cease with the coming of the Messiah? ALL Christianity is about family…that’s about as NT as it gets.

You think that one has to make a profession of faith to enter the Kingdom of God, but you probably don’t believe that baptism is crucial for salvation…yet the NT is almost adamant about that…

Tell me oudave, do you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation?

P.S. Original sin is in the NT…it is NOT a 6th century invention of the Church. You need to show us your sources on this kind of erroneous belief because so far they are anything but credible sources. I do hope you didn’ t have to pay for them…

Pax vobiscum,

 

[Maccabees]

’ It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin.’

and you ‘know’ this because…

Yeah and it wasn’t till around 400 AD we came up with the Bible.
Your point?
It wasn’ till Nicea that we came up with the modern doctrine of the trinity in what around 325 AD.
That doesn’t mean they were simply invented that means at these dates these teachings were codified. They always existed in some form the time of the apostles. ITs called the devlopement of doctrine I know its high brow for a fundie but think outside the box for a minute did your pastor come up with the canon of the Bible did he come up with the trinity?

 

[MaggieOH]

’ It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin.’

and you ‘know’ this because…

St. Augustine lived before 500 AD

 

[Robert_in_SD]

oudave:

Hi-
Each of us was born pure and innocent. That why Jesus said we must become like little children if we hope to enter his kingdom.

Hi oudave;

I think you are confusing personal sin with Original sin. Original sin is clearly referenced in the NT as it necessitated Jesus crucifiction and death on the cross.

Rom. 5:12-19: many became sinners through one man’s sin.

• 1 cor. 15:21-23: by a man came death; in Adam all die
• Eph. 2:1-3: we all once lived the passions of our flesh

Charity,

 

[MaggieOH]

oudave:

Hi-
This scripture get’s misquoted all the time, your reference to Mark
isn’t talking about baptism. Read Mark 10:13-14, Math 19:13-14 and Luke 18:15-16. Jesus was laying hands on them and blessing them, not baptizing them. I don’t think that infant and baptism are mentioned in the same sentence anywhere in scripture. I could be wrong though.

Whilst I agree that there is no mention of Baptism in this verse, I think that you are missing the point. In Mark’s Gospel it says that the children were brought to Jesus by their parents for a blessing or to just touch Jesus. The disciples were rebuking them and then Jesus said the following:

“Let the children come to me and don’t stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.”

The mere fact that Jesus is blessing the children is an indication of the desire of God to have these children in the fold of Christianity so that they are taught to know and love God whilst they remain innocent and loving.

oudave:

Each of us was born pure and innocent. That why Jesus said we must become like little children if we hope to enter his kingdom (Mathew 18:3).

children are only pure and innocent where personal sin is concerned. However, this is not the reason that Jesus says that we must become like little children if we want to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Young innocent children have other qualities that causes Jesus to say these words - trust & faith. Children do not depend upon reason to recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus wants the children to come so that they can be with Him. They can be with Him through their baptism as infants.

oudave:

As we grew up we learned to do evil from those around us. Satan tempted us to do evil, even as he did Adam and Eve. We exercised our will power just as they did.

However, children were also capable of doing evil, but as little ones they did not realise that what they were doing is wrong. It is true that Satan is ever present to tempt us, including the temptation of children.

oudave:

When we did that which God has forbidden or when we failed to do that which he had told us to do we sinned. For that we are accountable and responsible (II Corinthians 5:10). It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin. I don’t believe thats in the Bible either, but I could be wrong there as well. I hope this helps you out.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Dave this is where you are in error. The concept of Original Sin is in the Scripture:

“Through one man sin came into the world…”

Maggie

 

[RobedWithLight]

MaggieOH:

children are only pure and innocent where personal sin is concerned. However, this is not the reason that Jesus says that we must become like little children if we want to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Young innocent children have other qualities that causes Jesus to say these words - trust & faith. Children do not depend upon reason to recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus wants the children to come so that they can be with Him. They can be with Him through their baptism as infants.

Precisely. I made a similar point in the other thread about infant baptism. What better way can little children approach Jesus now, than to have them baptized ?

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

oudave:

Hi-
It wasn’t until around 500 AD that
the catholic church came up with original sin. I don’t believe thats in the Bible either, but I could be wrong there as well. I hope this helps you out.
Davehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Let me reiterate what has been asked earlier. Can you provide us with scholarly references or documents that the Catholic Church came up with the idea of original sin around 500 A.D?

Gerry

 

[JLove]

About the whole “A.D. 500” quote: I don’t know where it’s coming from, but I can’t find any explicit councilior disertation on original sin until the Council of Trent in the mid-16th century. HOWEVER, the Council of Trent refences the coucils of Carthage and Orange, in 419 and 441 respectively. In those councils (Carthage in particular) they were dealing with the Pelagian Heresy that taught that we did not have some kind of stain of sin passed from Adam and Eve, but that we were all tempted by Satan and chose ourselves what to do. (Hum, sounds like something I read up top.) Carthage taught that death along with sin were passed to all because of the fall. The council references Rom. 5 and 1 Cor. 15. The best part is that Pelagius was borrowing this idea from Theodorus of Mopsuestia, and Theodorus’s ideas were condemded by St. Augustine of Hippo writing in the late 4th century. (Theodorus was also excommunicated by the Second Eccumenical Council of Constantinople in 553).
So, “Original Sin” was not dogmatically defined until Trent, but it was by no means something new.