Mark of God at baptism & Christian questions

[KendraM]

You are different than the rest of creation because you were created in the image and likeness of God. The fact that my child might run away from home does not mean that he is no longer my child. He is a child that has chosen to live apart from me. Not all “children of God” will end up sharing in the life of God. Some have chosen not to share in the life of God and God will never interfere in a persons free will to choose as they see fit.

Remember, Christ died for all men and women and paid the price for their sins so that they might live with him forever in heaven. Those that find salvation have accepted this most wonderful of gifts. Those who find damnation have rejected this gift. They have received exactly what they have chosen; a life without God.

That makes me feel a LOT better. I thought I wasn’t a child of God unless I was baptized.

 

[KendraM]

Hi KendraM,

I’m a former Latter-day Saint. You can see the link to my blog below, feel free to check it out, hopefully it will be helpful to you.

As a Catholic, I believe that we are all children of God because He created us, unlike everything else He created, in His image and likeness. You are definitely not “just a creature” in the Catholic belief. A “pre-mortal existence” is not necessary for that belief. LDS believe that we are all, including Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, spiritually begotten children of God the Father and His eternal spouse, Heavenly Mother. As I’m sure you know, such a belief is not found within Catholicism.

In Catholicism, God is God (and has eternally been God), and man is man. Through Christ, we can become like God, becoming by grace what God is by nature (I believe Saint Athanasius said that). There is a difference of “kind” or “nature”. In contrast, LDS believe that God and man are the same type of being, with God merely further along in His progression than the rest of us (in addition to the belief that God was once a mortal man that progressed to Godhood, and we follow His example, a belief that is allowable within LDS beliefs).

Through baptism, we become adopted children of Christ, who is God. When we are validly baptized, among other things, we join the Kingdom of God, which is one reason why God wants people baptized from infancy if possible.

As Catholics, we believe that God established His Church anciently, as you read in the New Testament. That Church is a supernatural organization, the Body of Christ. Because it has Christ at its Head, and because the Spirit guides the Church, it cannot fail, it cannot apostatize. Catholics believe that that Church is still here today, and is the Catholic Church. We believe that we carry on the same beliefs and practices as the ancient Christians, and that the priesthood given by Christ was never taken away, but has been blessing the lives of humanity for 2000 years. God still speaks to His children (He never stopped, as the LDS faith would have us believe), and we can all receive guidance from the Lord for our lives. When our Church leaders meet in Councils, they are protected by the Spirit from formally proclaiming doctrinal errors. All Catholic churches, basilicas, chapels, and cathedrals are temples, where the presence of God can be found (there’s always a lamp that continuously burns in the sanctuary to indicate the real, actual presence of Christ), and where sacrifice and other sacramental mysteries are offered by God’s priesthood. Many if not most of the things that I appreciated about Mormonism can be found, in a fuller, more rational and Biblical way, in Catholicism, as you can see above and in my blog.

Hopefully you’ll be able to visit your local Catholic church soon. Many, if not most, Catholic churches will have more than one Mass on Sundays that you could attend to see what it’s like if you haven’t already. Some churches also have Masses every day of the week.

Feel free to ask me any questions/start a thread. Good luck in your journey!

Thank you! That really does help me understand more. Glad that you know what sort of path I have come from. I will check out your blog

 

[iepuras]

Hi KendraM,

Welcome! I am former LDS who was born in the covenant. I went to BYU, married in the temple, the whole 9 yards. I do understand how difficult it is to have your entire foundation of faith ripped out from underneath you. It is difficult to believe that there is truth in any faith tradition after leaving Mormonism. You are not alone.

I do recommend checking out LivingWater’s blog. It is very insightful and has helped me a lot.

What has helped me on my journey to the Catholic Church and belief in God is that in high school, I went through an agnostic phase and through reason, determined that there is a God, meaning an Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. I should have used that knowledge to work my way out of Mormonism sooner, but it didn’t work out that way. But here I am. God didn’t give up on me. He has always been working on me to help me out of the LDS church. Because I had already reasoned my way to knowing that God exists, I could not become an atheist or agnostic like many other former Mormons. I stared down that abyss and could not deny that God existed because I already knew He is there. I just didn’t know the true God. God created everything out of nothing, which is vastly different from the Mormon concept of Heavenly Father, who is a highly evolved man who only organizes what is already there. He created us because God is love. He loves us and He created us in His image, meaning we have free will and reason.

Interestingly, as a Mormon I did think that if the LDS church was not true, then the Catholic Church would be. I was always drawn to the Catholic Church and didn’t buy into the anti-Catholic sentiment of many in the LDS church. It was the first place I naturally looked to to find true Christianity.

The Catholic Church has everything that I was always looking for but never found in the LDS church. At Mass, I found true worship. In the Blessed Sacrament, I found the Real Presence of God. I am not yet able partake, but I can still be in His presence at my parish’s Adoration Chapel. I don’t need to prove worthiness or ask for permission to be in the presence of God. Everyone is welcome. As a woman, I had a lot of difficulties with the LDS doctrine of polygamy and the idea of having a Heavenly Mother I could not access. I now know that I do have access to Mary, our Blessed Mother in Heaven. She will always guide us to her Son, Jesus Christ.

I could go on and on. Keep talking to the priest and check out RCIA. I have learned so much. Remember, God didn’t declare that His creation was very good until He created Adam and Eve. He loves us and always invites us to come home to Him.

 

[KendraM]

Iepuras, everything you wrote really does bring me comfort. I was also born in the covenant and grew up 10 minutes from BYU. I was married in the Salt Lake Temple.

It all brings me hope to know you can believe in something after all of this.

Really, I am just very happy that I don’t have to be a god to live with God in heaven. It is too much responsibility to be a god I just WOULDN’T be happy in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom.

Now when I pray I say “I’m praying to the God of the Trinity” and sometimes do the sign of the cross to make sure I’m really praying to the true God this time.

It really is amazing to know that Jesus is God rather than Jesus as my brother. It shows the great love and mercy of God. He actually came here as a man to save us! It is a comfort to know that this God does not command polygamy or require us to be a god. I’m glad I joined this forum. It will help me untangle from the old. Rewire the whole brain! Thank you everyone who has replied!

 

[iepuras]

It really is amazing to know that Jesus is God rather than Jesus as my brother. It shows the great love and mercy of God. He actually came here as a man to save us! It is a comfort to know that this God does not command polygamy or require us to be a god. I’m glad I joined this forum. It will help me untangle from the old. Rewire the whole brain! Thank you everyone who has replied!

You hit the nail on the head! The Mormon idea of Jesus as our older brother and the plan of salvation sounds really nice. In fact, the plan of salvation was one of the harder things for me to give up. But the idea of an older brother helping out younger siblings, although nice, is not all that special. What older sibling does not help out the younger ones?

But God who created heaven and earth humbling Himself to become man? That is huge! It is love and mercy that we cannot comprehend.

So glad you are here! It’s a journey and I have been helped immensely by others on this forum, especially the other former Mormons now Catholics.

 

[CarolNoel]

Ah! It’s the real thing.

 

[Cathoholic]

Concerns about multiple Baptisms:

Amo a Jesus.

Your concerns about multiple Baptisms are appropriate.

One should not be re-baptized.

But that’s the point. KendraM has NEVER been Baptized. At least concerning Christian Baptism.

 

[Cathoholic]

Catholic Christianity–Seeking the Fullness of Truth

KendraM. You stated you are looking for a whole new belief system.

Catholic Christianity (the FULLNESS of Christianity) is so much more than a mere “belief system”.

Someone on CAF once said:

Cults are easy to get into, and hard to get out of.
Catholicism is hard to get into, and easy to get out of.

Now the above is merely a pithy overstatement to be sure. But there is much more than a small kernel of truth to it.

Catholicism is hard to get into as it takes much study, prayer, and overcoming the world who hates Her.

Catholicism is easy to get out of, as you won’t be forced into staying, and personal sin can blind a person in a “New York minute” making it easy to repudiate Catholic Christianity.

Once you are Catholic though, you will always have a “Euchristic hunger” for Jesus that cannot be satisfied anywhere else.

I suspect you are “not far from the kingdom”.

If the Lord Jesus is calling you into Catholicism, that would be a very great privilege indeed. I will offer a decade of the Rosary for your search tonight.

May I suggest doing some reading and studying at a Catholic Eucharistic Adoration chapel? There is probably one locally wherever you are. They are usually connected to the Catholic Church buildings. If you are unaware of such, this link may help or just telephone your local diocesan Catholic chancery office and ask them “Where is the closest Catholic Adoration Chapel?” They will help you. Not all Catholic Church’s have a Eucharistic Adoration Chapel (for reasons I won’t get into here).

Remember, Jesus is REALLY and ACTUALLY substantially present in the Eucharist—Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. There is NO BREAD that remains (only the APPEARANCE of bread). You will obtain tremendous graces from spending time there. Scott Hahn calls it a “Son burn”.

God bless.

Cathoholic

PS

Incidentally, I am not suggesting Mormonism is a cult or for that matter, denying Mormonism is a cult. I won’t “go there” on these posts. I am just contrasting Catholicism with “belief systems” you might be looking at.

 

[Cathoholic]

About Jesus as our brother.

KendraM. You stated:

It really is amazing to know that Jesus is God rather than Jesus as my brother.

Jesus is BOTH.

Jesus is fully true God Who Is, Was, and Always Will Be".

Jesus took flesh upon Himself about two thousand years ago and therefore Jesus is ALSO fully true man and will remain ALSO true man for all eternity.

KendraM, Jesus continues to offer His “once for all” sacrifice on the Altar in Heaven which is WHY in Revelation 5:6, St. John the Evangelist sees Jesus on the Altar in Heaven as “a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain”. Jesus continues to offer Himself in Heaven for you.

Jesus IS GOD to be sure but Jesus is ALSO our eldest “Brother”. Jesus is “the first-born among many brethren”.

ROMANS 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

(Bold and underline in Romans 8:29 mine)

 

[KendraM]

Catholic Christianity–Seeking the Fullness of Truth

Incidentally, I am not suggesting Mormonism is a cult or for that matter, denying Mormonism is a cult. I won’t “go there” on these posts. I am just contrasting Catholicism with “belief systems” you might be looking at.

Don’t worry Cathoholic, I’m not offended. Many religions can be considered “cult”. The question is whether it is a harmful and destructive cult or not. So if it has false teachings that harm the spirit of a person, it could be considered as spiritually destructive. I’ve heard it called “culture” but that is for people who could easily be offended.

 

[KendraM]

About Jesus as our brother.

Jesus is BOTH.

Jesus IS GOD to be sure but Jesus is ALSO our eldest “Brother”. Jesus is “the first-born among many brethren”.

ROMANS 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

(Bold and underline in Romans 8:29 mine)

I’m sorry but that confuses me. It is hard for me to understand all this when I was told that Jesus is our literal brother from the pre-existence. I suppose you may mean he is our brother because he is God become man. Being man makes him a brother? Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[SteveVH]

I’m sorry but that confuses me. It is hard for me to understand all this when I was told that Jesus is our literal brother from the pre-existence. I suppose you may mean he is our brother because he is God become man. Being man makes him a brother? Is that what you are trying to say?

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father and we will become adopted sons and daughters of the Father, making Jesus our brother. This is due to nothing but the gratuitous love of God for us creatures who have been created in his image and likeness.

“…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.…” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

 

[KendraM]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father and we will become adopted sons and daughters of the Father, making Jesus our brother. This is due to nothing but the gratuitous love of God for us creatures who have been created in his image and likeness.

“…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.…” (Ephesians 1:4-6)

Okay Steve. That makes more sense. What I like is that it isn’t meant to make us believe that we will be become gods (like Joseph Smith taught). It is a miracle of the true God whose love is so great that he would lower himself to our level to save us undeserving sinners. So he is our God and our brother (but not as a brother who is an equal since he is far greater). Am I understanding the Christian concept of this?

 

[SteveVH]

Okay Steve. That makes more sense. What I like is that it isn’t meant to make us believe that we will be become gods (like Joseph Smith taught). It is a miracle of the true God whose love is so great that he would lower himself to our level to save us undeserving sinners. So he is our God and our brother (but not as a brother who is an equal since he is far greater). Am I understanding the Christian concept of this?

Yes, for the most part. You have stated that the idea of the pre-existence has caused problems in understanding the Christian view and I would agree completely. Equally problematic is the idea of “Exaltation”; progressing to the level of godhood by our own actions and assuming divinity as part of our human nature, yet to be realized. Instead, the Christian view is that of “Theosis”, which holds that man becomes by grace what God is by nature and so through grace we share in God’s life. In other words, we share in God’s divinity due to the gratuitous, loving action of God which we do not possess within our human nature. Our share in the divine nature then is a gift, rather than a realization of our own potential to which we eternally progress.

 

[KendraM]

Yes, for the most part. You have stated that the idea of the pre-existence has caused problems in understanding the Christian view and I would agree completely. Equally problematic is the idea of “Exaltation”; progressing to the level of godhood by our own actions and assuming divinity as part of our human nature, yet to be realized. Instead, the Christian view is that of “Theosis”, which holds that man becomes by grace what God is by nature and so through grace we share in God’s life. In other words, we share in God’s divinity due to the gratuitous, loving action of God which we do not possess within our human nature. Our share in the divine nature then is a gift, rather than a realization of our own potential to which we eternally progress.

Wow! Steve, you have NO idea how much you have just helped me. It can really humble someone to realize this and at the same time show the depth of God’s power and grace. You also explained CCC 460 for me

I knew the Catholic Christians could get me out of this, if anyone could.

 

[SteveVH]

Wow! Steve, you have NO idea how much you have just helped me. It can really humble someone to realize this and at the same time show the depth of God’s power and grace. You also explained CCC 460 for me

I knew the Catholic Christians could get me out of this, if anyone could.

I am so happy I could help.

 

[Cathoholic]

ROMANS 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

I’m sorry but that confuses me. It is hard for me to understand all this when I was told that Jesus is our literal brother from the pre-existence.

I understand what you are saying and I actually thought of this potential confusion (because of Mormon teachings in the past) when I wrote my post.

Perhaps it would be better for you right now to focus on the Blessed Virgin Mary as your Mother (spiritually speaking). Later on, with meditation and grace, more insights will occur.

You as a faithful Christian (if you are headed toward “Christianity” and I suspect you are), don’t want to deny Romans 8:29 or for that matter any other verse in Scripture (in the proper context).

Any ex-Mormon Catholics out there that can explain this concept of Jesus as True God and True man (while preserving the context of Romans 8:29) any better than I did (I proverbially just fell flat on my face with my explanation to a person who has been subject to a lot of Mormon “theology”)?

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Cathoholic]

KendraM. When I talk of “cult” in a general sense, I am NOT referring to “whacky beliefs” (although cults have this too) but rather I am referring to control techniques.

A “cult” controls a lot of aspects of your life that are not demanded by a religion and can scar a person socially and in other ways.

A CULT controls a large part of your time.

A CULT excessively controls what you read (Some of this is OK but it can be abused. The denunciation of “reading” pornography by a Church is good for example).

A CULT controls an inordinate segment of your social life (so if you start “questioning”, you get the “silent treatment” by all your friends and you have no other friends to make up for this void because you were inordinately told not to have non-whatever friends).

A CULT controls where you live often (“You flower girls have to live in this commune” – from a popular 1960’s cult that I won’t mention here).

A CULT controls an excessive share of your money.

A CULT may even control your vacation time or try to get your children taken away from you if you don’t raise them the way they tell you to raise them.

Control, control, control.

This is the hallmark of a cult.

I think it was Tom Smith who talked about when he was a “Mormon Missionary” his time was so-controlled that the only free time he could have to read what he wanted without being “spied upon”, was to be on the toilet in the bathroom.

So Smith would read items that he wasn’t supposed to read while on the toilet. Notice the Mormons are telling him what to read and not to read and spying on him.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses for example, try to tell their followers that reading religious materials not put out by them is “eating off of the table of satan”. Next time the Witnesses show up at your door have a tract ready and ask them to read it to you out loud. They won’t (because the spy, I mean the other one will tell the elders and the “reader” will get reprimanded). I actually tried this once. The Witnesses denied this when I confronted them about it and said, they would read it. When I brought it out and tried to give it to him, he looked at the other Witness and refused to touch it much less read it. All this after basically telling me I was so wrong about their methods.

Mary Kochan talks about the cult concept in her audio series Meeting The Challenge Of The Cults (here).

More on the Mormon aspect are two or three audio series that I cannot recommend enough. I think all three of these people are on this forum from time to time too.

One is Tom Smith’s series:

Mormonism: Great Apostasy Or Apostolic Succession MP3 here and CD here.

Also Paul Dupre’s series The Mormon Challenge. Can be found here.

I have listened to both series and they are both tremendous. There is only a little overlap (in other words, listen to BOTH series).

Patrick Madrid, a “cradle Catholic” also does the second of three audios in the series
Answers For Non-Catholics. Madrid’s talk concerns Mormonism from his cradle-Catholic perspective. I have also listened to this talk and it is likewise a “home run”.

These three audio series are all very charitable. I’ve seen some ex-Mormons who are really mean to the Mormon people or about the Mormon people. With Smith, Dupre, and Madrid, you will find none of this shenanigans. They all strike me as men of great faith and integrity. They are all adept at taking the truths in Mormonism and building upon them while at the same time absolutely rejecting the falsehoods of Mormonism.

These three audio series are what I would call for a Christian; “Catholicism as it relates to Momonism 101”. In other words, these are the basics for audios.

Please consider obtaining and listening to all three series. I cannot recommend them enough.

These principles outlined by the men (I mentioned above) will help integrating the Spiritual aspects of Christianity with the Physical aspects of Christianity.

After all, that’s what this thread is all about. Baptism and how the water AND the Spirit come upon and into the recipient.

How the Spiritual integrates with the Physical.

As you get into a more Christian mindset, things like Jesus being True God AND True man will make more sense to you (even though ultimately they are above what we can totally grasp in this world).

I hope this helps you on your journey.