Mark Twain & Being Saved

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Hiya CAF!

Question for you all. What Scripture verse do you think Samuel Clemens a.k.a. Mark Twain is referring to when he writes in his book Joan of Arc:

There was no hope, no way out of the dilemma…for* the Scriptures had said one cannot know this thing.***

This is right after a court asked St. Joan whether she was in a state of grace (according to Clemens’ book, her answer was: “If I be not in a state of grace, I pray God to place me in it; if I be in it, I pray God keep me so.”).

Thanks!
n
 
Perhaps 1 Corinthians 12:3 “…And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.” of which Saint Thomas Aquinas says speaks that “every truth, by whomsoever uttered is by the Holy Ghost. Now the Holy Ghost dwells in us by Grace, hence we cannot know truth without grace.”

the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas
 
Hm, so St. Thomas is saying that we cannot know truth without grace – but the question from me is still, does “grace” tell us that we are absolutely saved, or does it not? Can “grace” tell us that?

So…thank you michaelhager, but I’m not satisfied with your answer. Any others?

Or perhaps what Twain wrote here was incorrect?
 
nqes7t9 said:
Hiya CAF!

Question for you all. What Scripture verse do you think Samuel Clemens a.k.a. Mark Twain is referring to when he writes in his book Joan of Arc:

There was no hope, no way out of the dilemma…for* the Scriptures had said one cannot know this thing.***

This is right after a court asked St. Joan whether she was in a state of grace (according to Clemens’ book, her answer was: “If I be not in a state of grace, I pray God to place me in it; if I be in it, I pray God keep me so.”).

Thanks!
n
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St. Joan is being true to Christian teaching. She is not judging the state of her own soul.
 
Could be John 9:25.

Without regard to his skill as an author, whatever Scripture he was referencing, Mark Twain is surely a poor judge of it.

-Tim-
 
nqes7t9 said:
Hm, so St. Thomas is saying that we cannot know truth without grace – but the question from me is still, does “grace” tell us that we are absolutely saved, or does it not? Can “grace” tell us that?

So…thank you michaelhager, but I’m not satisfied with your answer. Any others?

Or perhaps what Twain wrote here was incorrect?
Click to expand...
Well, I’m sorry you were dissapointed, but my answer was based entirely on the original question:

“…What Scripture verse do you think Samuel Clemens a.k.a. Mark Twain is referring to when he writes in his book Joan of Arc…”

The question of Grace and salvation is a different discussion all together.

So…

Grace and Salvation… Hmmm… It is by His infinite Grace that God gave us His Son as a sacrifice for all of our sin. It is not by grace that we are saved, but through His grace that He offers us salvation as a gift. We choose to accept it or reject it. We accept it by faith and through faith we strive to keep His commandments and aspire to be worthy of that saving grace. We all fail miserably, but thankfully, His Grace and Love are infinite and He will forgive us infinitely more than seven times seventy. So we falter, and fall, then beg (and receive) his forgiveness and we struggle until our last breath to attain the grace that He offers.

So St. Joan’s answer is perfect:

“If I be not in a state of grace, I pray God to place me in it; if I be in it, I pray God keep me so.”

Amen
 
Michaelhager, I’m sorry; I didn’t mean to criticize your response. Yes, I think you’re right when you said you were responding to my question, which verse do you think… thanks for your effort in this thread. It could well be that’s what Twain was referring to.
 
Perhaps he had 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 in mind:
1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
 
Todd977, thank you…but I’m still skeptical. It sounds to me like St. Paul is as a matter of fact advocating not judging oneself, but I don’t read him as stating that it’s not possible for one to judge oneself (or, to use my original wording, for one to know one’s state of grace).

I posted a second thread on this topic in another forum; someone else in that thread also mentioned 1 Cor 4:1-5.
 
  1. Twain did some exceptional research for his Joan of Arc book, but he’s not a Catholic theologian.
  2. His use of this particular “Scripture” phrase might be loose; or he might be paraphrasing comments made by members of the court (who could have been talking loosely themselves, as the Rouen guys weren’t theological geniuses, either).
  3. We do know that St. Jeanne at the trial often quoted or paraphrased a set of old “homily helpers” by a famous Paris theologian, which were apparently used by the parish priest in Arc. (So yeah, it pays to listen to homilies and remember them!)
One of these homilies was a warning against “presumption,” the sin of being too sure that one was in a state of grace or would be saved, or of being too sure that one had mortally sinned or would be damned.

So it’s possible that somebody at the trial said there were Church “writings” against this, but Twain thought they meant Scriptures with a capital S.
  1. Some editions of Twain’s Joan of Arc book contain footnotes and citations. Is this remark footnoted in the edition you read?
 
Mintaka, thanks. This makes sense to me.

No, my edition does not have footnotes.

I also noticed that my edition seems to have lots of typos. Reads almost like someone used an OCR but then never fixed it up.
 
nqes7t9 said:
Hm, so St. Thomas is saying that we cannot know truth without grace – but the question from me is still, does “grace” tell us that we are absolutely saved, or does it not? Can “grace” tell us that?

So…thank you michaelhager, but I’m not satisfied with your answer. Any others?

Or perhaps what Twain wrote here was incorrect?
Click to expand...
My answer would be that one cannot know that one is saved once for all. In other words there is always the possibility that one can lose one’s salvation. and for this there is much scriptural support.
 
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