Maronite Liturgy during/before 16th century

[Cedrus_Fidei]

Hello,

I’m wondering if there are any Arabic or English translations of the versions of the Maronite Qurbono (Liturgy) from before the 16th century (before the Roman legates reformed them) or even the reformed missals flowing from the immediate latinization reforms?

Also, when I was a kid, my mom bought me a tape recording of a beautiful Maronite Mass that must’ve taken place in the 80’s or 90’s and it had a lot of Syriac chanting by the priest and deacon, and even the people. Sadly, the tape went bad and I’ve been looking for it or one like it ever since. It’s not the same one as the Sharar version online with Wadih el Safi. Anyone know where I can find any older recordings of Maronite Liturgy?

Finally, at our Liturgy, while our priest is raising the Eucharist, he likes us to chant the hymn “O Father of Truth” which is “Ya Ab al 7aq” in Arabic. I learned the hymn Abu Dkouchto in the original melody but I noticed it isn’t exactly the same as the Arabic version. I also couldn’t find it in the current Book of Offering. Anyone with an idea why that may be?

Thank you,

Cedrus Fidei

 

[malphono]

I’m wondering if there are any Arabic or English translations of the versions of the Maronite Qurbono (Liturgy) from before the 16th century (before the Roman legates reformed them) or even the reformed missals flowing from the immediate latinization reforms?

If there are, I’m not aware of them. One has to bear in mind that the Roman “legates” burned many of the manuscripts that came into their hands, so there’s precious little even in Syriac that survives.

Also, when I was a kid, my mom bought me a tape recording of a beautiful Maronite Mass that must’ve taken place in the 80’s or 90’s and it had a lot of Syriac chanting by the priest and deacon, and even the people. Sadly, the tape went bad and I’ve been looking for it or one like it ever since. It’s not the same one as the Sharar version online with Wadih el Safi. Anyone know where I can find any older recordings of Maronite Liturgy?

There are two recordings, both from the 1960s, that I’m familiar with. One is with Wadih el-Safi and the other is with the choir of the Antonine College at Baabda. There was also one done by Khouri Mansour Labaki with Tony Hanna as cantor, which is quite nice, but I don’t recall any congregational parts. There were a few others, one done at St Maron’s in Cleveland by the late Msgr Joseph Feghali. I’ve not heard that one, but it was published by the parish, although I’m not sure of just when, In general, however, such recordings are as scarce as hen’s teeth, and I’ve no idea where one might come by them.

Oh, and BTW, there is no older recording of the anaphora of Peter III (aka Sharrar). With the exception of Rshom Koso (used on Great Friday) which is based on it, the anaphora of Peter III was essentially unused since the 1600s. The anaphora used in the Wadih el-Safi recording is, IIRC, Twelve Apostles.

Finally, at our Liturgy, while our priest is raising the Eucharist, he likes us to chant the hymn “O Father of Truth” which is “Ya Ab al 7aq” in Arabic. I learned the hymn Abu Dkouchto in the original melody but I noticed it isn’t exactly the same as the Arabic version. I also couldn’t find it in the current Book of Offering. Anyone with an idea why that may be?

I presume you mean that the music of the Arabic version isn’t quite the same as the original Syriac. There could be several reasons for that, one being that what you’ve heard in Arabic is a neo-Maronite product of the so-called “liturgical commission” and is of recent vintage, which abuses both the text and the tune. If it’s an older version, the explanation is that melodies were tweaked a bit to fit the Arabic text. A note or two added here or dropped there. One has to keep in mind that Syriac qolé are metrical and that Syriac has strong syllables. The syllables in Arabic, OTOH, are much weaker, so the tweaking was necessary in order to maintain the integrity of the text. Not an ideal solution, but certainly far superior to the neo-Maronite stuff that is currently being imposed.

Does that help at all?

 

[Cedrus_Fidei]

If there are, I’m not aware of them. One has to bear in mind that the Roman “legates” burned many of the manuscripts that came into their hands, so there’s precious little even in Syriac that survives.

There are two recordings, both from the 1960s, that I’m familiar with. One is with Wadih el-Safi and the other is with the choir of the Antonine College at Baabda. There was also one done by Khouri Mansour Labaki with Tony Hanna as cantor, which is quite nice, but I don’t recall any congregational parts. There were a few others, one done at St Maron’s in Cleveland by the late Msgr Joseph Feghali. I’ve not heard that one, but it was published by the parish, although I’m not sure of just when, In general, however, such recordings are as scarce as hen’s teeth, and I’ve no idea where one might come by them.

Oh, and BTW, there is no older recording of the anaphora of Peter III (aka Sharrar). With the exception of Rshom Koso (used on Great Friday) which is based on it, the anaphora of Peter III was essentially unused since the 1600s. The anaphora used in the Wadih el-Safi recording is, IIRC, Twelve Apostles.

I presume you mean that the music of the Arabic version isn’t quite the same as the original Syriac. There could be several reasons for that, one being that what you’ve heard in Arabic is a neo-Maronite product of the so-called “liturgical commission” and is of recent vintage, which abuses both the text and the tune. If it’s an older version, the explanation is that melodies were tweaked a bit to fit the Arabic text. A note or two added here or dropped there. One has to keep in mind that Syriac qolé are metrical and that Syriac has strong syllables. The syllables in Arabic, OTOH, are much weaker, so the tweaking was necessary in order to maintain the integrity of the text. Not an ideal solution, but certainly far superior to the neo-Maronite stuff that is currently being imposed.

Does that help at all?

If there are, I’m not aware of them. One has to bear in mind that the Roman “legates” burned many of the manuscripts that came into their hands, so there’s precious little even in Syriac that survives.

There are two recordings, both from the 1960s, that I’m familiar with. One is with Wadih el-Safi and the other is with the choir of the Antonine College at Baabda. There was also one done by Khouri Mansour Labaki with Tony Hanna as cantor, which is quite nice, but I don’t recall any congregational parts. There were a few others, one done at St Maron’s in Cleveland by the late Msgr Joseph Feghali. I’ve not heard that one, but it was published by the parish, although I’m not sure of just when, In general, however, such recordings are as scarce as hen’s teeth, and I’ve no idea where one might come by them.

Oh, and BTW, there is no older recording of the anaphora of Peter III (aka Sharrar). With the exception of Rshom Koso (used on Great Friday) which is based on it, the anaphora of Peter III was essentially unused since the 1600s. The anaphora used in the Wadih el-Safi recording is, IIRC, Twelve Apostles.

I presume you mean that the music of the Arabic version isn’t quite the same as the original Syriac. There could be several reasons for that, one being that what you’ve heard in Arabic is a neo-Maronite product of the so-called “liturgical commission” and is of recent vintage, which abuses both the text and the tune. If it’s an older version, the explanation is that melodies were tweaked a bit to fit the Arabic text. A note or two added here or dropped there. One has to keep in mind that Syriac qolé are metrical and that Syriac has strong syllables. The syllables in Arabic, OTOH, are much weaker, so the tweaking was necessary in order to maintain the integrity of the text. Not an ideal solution, but certainly far superior to the neo-Maronite stuff that is currently being imposed.

Does that help at all?

Thank you Malphono! You sure do deserve your name “teacher”. So yes you have been helpful indeed.

As for the Abou Dkoutcho, what I meant was that the arabic hymn “Ya Ab al 7aq” is not the same text as the Syriac…it’s not a translation. It’s either a reduced paraphrase or comes from another similar hymn. I learned the hymn in Syriac, not in Arabic.I found it online along with a translation into Arabic and I’m going to try to translate it to English so that it fits into the original melody.

Do you know where the hymn would’ve been chanted during Liturgy…at the raising of the chalice perhaps (where the O Lord You are the pleasing oblation… is recited)?

As far as finding recordings, perhaps I’ll be able to find some when I go to Ghazir in a month from now to the seminary.

 

[malphono]

Thank you Malphono! You sure do deserve your name “teacher”. So yes you have been helpful indeed.

BTW, rather than bore the world to death with minutiae, if you need any of the following (or the preceding, for that matter) clarified, go ahead and PM me. I’ can’t promise much but I’ll give it a go.

As for the Abou Dkoutcho, what I meant was that the arabic hymn “Ya Ab al 7aq” is not the same text as the Syriac…it’s not a translation. It’s either a reduced paraphrase or comes from another similar hymn. I learned the hymn in Syriac, not in Arabic.I found it online along with a translation into Arabic and I’m going to try to translate it to English so that it fits into the original melody.

In the old-style versions, the Arabic was rarely a direct translation of the Syriac, mainly due to grammatical differences between Syriac and “standard” literary Arabic. (NB: It probably could have been/could be translated more-or-less literally in dialect, but remember that dialect was/is never used for such things.) In past times, however, they did attempt to keep the meaning the same. No so for the neo-Maronite bilge where the texts are so loose they really cease to be translations.

As for translating to English, have you ever seen the hymnal from the 1970s (IIRC it was entitled “Cedars of Lebanon”) by Khouri Mansour Labaki? FYI, Labaki used the “old style” in his works, meaning that tweaked a tune here and there, and he tried to keep his English renderings faithful to the original in meaning.

Do you know where the hymn would’ve been chanted during Liturgy…at the raising of the chalice perhaps (where the O Lord You are the pleasing oblation… is recited)?

Yes, that’s just where it was done. The prayer you cited was said at the end, and is the only thing that survives.

As far as finding recordings, perhaps I’ll be able to find some when I go to Ghazir in a month from now to the seminary.

Good luck with that.

 

[Thomas48]

The Syro Malabar Church actually borrowed a Maronite Syriac hymn in the 1700’s. I do not know the name of this hymn but we still sing it today. Sadly the Maronite’s do not have this hymn today and from asking around I haven’t found a Maronite that can recall it. I am assuming it was removed during Latinization. However I am very surprised how the Syro Malabar Church has been able to retain this hymn even with all of our Latinizations as well.

Here is a link-
youtu.be/eDsTlUflql0?t=9m36s (Starts at 9:36)

 

[malphono]

The Syro Malabar Church actually borrowed a Maronite Syriac hymn in the 1700’s. I do not know the name of this hymn but we still sing it today. Sadly the Maronite’s do not have this hymn today and from asking around I haven’t found a Maronite that can recall it. I am assuming it was removed during Latinization. However I am very surprised how the Syro Malabar Church has been able to retain this hymn even with all of our Latinizations as well.

Here is a link-
youtu.be/eDsTlUflql0?t=9m36s (Starts at 9:36)

The tune is not familiar to me at all, but but it’s done in a very Keralite style so that part isn’t surprising. From what I heard, though, it’s a halleluyah with the minor doxology, which is (well, was - not so much these days) commonly found, but is normally part of something else.

 

[Thomas48]

The tune is not familiar to me at all, but but it’s done in a very Keralite style so that part isn’t surprising. From what I heard, though, it’s a halleluyah with the minor doxology, which is (well, was - not so much these days) commonly found, but is normally part of something else.

Yes I’m sure it was converted to the Syro Malabar Syriac style in the dawn of its use and thank you for the explanation of the hymn. And ah yes that is true as well, it is part of a larger prayer, I remember hearing it during a certain part of our Syriac Qurbana.

 

[keefabarmorun]

shlom lokh oH Cedrus,

As for the Abou Dkoutcho, what I meant was that the arabic hymn “Ya Ab al 7aq” is not the same text as the Syriac…it’s not a translation. It’s either a reduced paraphrase or comes from another similar hymn. I learned the hymn in Syriac, not in Arabic.I found it online along with a translation into Arabic and I’m going to try to translate it to English so that it fits into the original melody.

The most striking differences between the Syriac original and the subsequent Arabic versions are:
-The Syriac is in the 1st person of the singular.
-The first Arabic version was a literal translation of the Syriac, but with the change from the 1st person singular to the 1st person plural.
-The second Arabic version, is a paraphrase of sorts of the first Arabic version, done in the 1st person of the plural.
-The third Arabic version, in the 1st person of the singular, is a reordering of some of the sentences in some of the verses to make a new hymn.
-The fourth Arabic version, in the 1st person of the singular, is the first verse of the Syriac version literally translated into Arabic.
-There’s no musical notes for the 1st Arabic version that I’m aware of. It was used up to the 1980s, most likely for reference purposes only, while the Syriac version was being said.
-The musical notes for the other Arabic versions exist in the official Church hymnal book.

fush bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[keefabarmorun]

shlom lokh oH Cedrus,

I learned the hymn in Syriac, not in Arabic.I found it online along with a translation into Arabic and I’m going to try to translate it to English so that it fits into the original melody.

At Beith Souryoye Morounoye, we did a literal translation of the Syriac version, which will be published in an upcoming book. Hopefully it will help you out in your endeavour.

Supplication: [abo dqoošto]

Behold Your Son, O Father of Truth, the Sacrifice pleasing to You: accept Him Who died for me and may I be absolved through Him. Receive this oblation from my hands and be contented with me, and remember not the sins that I have committed before Your greatness.

Behold His Blood, shed upon Golgotha for my salvation, that pleads for me: accept my supplication because of it. If You weigh how much are my debts and how much are Your mercies, Your compassion outweighs more than the mountains that You weighed.

Look at the sins and look at the offering for them, the offering and the sacrifice is much greater than the debts. Because I have sinned, Your Beloved bore the nails and the spear, in order that His passions suffices to content You and by them shall I live.

Glory be to the Father Who sent His Son for us, and worship be to the Son Who by His crucifixion set free the whole world. Thanks be to the Spirit by Whom the Mystery of our salvation has been fulfilled. Blessed is He Who in His love gave life to all of us, and to Him be glory.

fush bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[SyroMalankara]

The reads exactly like the Malankara/Syriac Translation used in the Malankara Syriac Catholic and Malankara Orthodox and Syriac Malankara Orthodox Churches.

I will post a picture from the Malankara Syriac Catholic Takso tonite if time permits.