Marriage and Conversion

[BShep]

Hello! So I’m debating whether I even want to post this, as I’ve already written a book twice now and both times the dang site has logged me out and lost it all… So I know I can’t even give all the details that would need to go into it help you formulate any really valuable response…

I guess here goes… I was baptized at Easter Vigil this year at the age of 27. I have been married for 5 years and have a 2 year old daughter. My spouse is not baptized and is very suspicious of my conversion, to the point she even has sworn I’m sleeping with someone in the Church… Obviously not true either way, but that is indicative of how the relationship has been.

The relationship has been pretty bad the whole time with me putting up with a great deal of emotional abuse. It’s primarily been centered on our physical relationship, with nothing underlying that to really foster a true objective love as defined in John Paul II’s “Love and Responsibility”. In fact, reading that book, when it got to the description of “sinful” love that results from subjectivism and egoism, I couldn’t believe my eyes because John Paul II was telling me all of the ins and outs of my marriage…

So here I am in an invalid marriage (wife is unbaptized as was I at the time of marriage, no dispensation to marry an unbaptized party, marriage was result of both parties being damaged to the point we really were unable to truly assess what we were getting in to and none of the proper forms were followed as required per canon law) that is following the typical relationship pattern of regular ups and downs; however, the highs we experience are likely barely on par with what a normal relationship experiences as the average moments. This primarily due to it being only a physical relationship with no emotional, intellectual or spiritual connection. I have formed my conscience to the point I am confident that we should not be pursuing the relationship again; however, each time I have brought the D word into the discussion my wife promises to change everything to make things work (which I am against out of the gate, cause she shouldn’t have to change and if she does it will simply cause resentment which will propagate all the issues further…).

Don’t get me wrong folks… I love my daughter more than I can describe, which is why when my wife counters I still want to try. But I am also convinced that staying in this relationship will only teach her bad habits and to look for similar relationships herself when she grows up, which is the last thing I want for her. But I just dropped the D word again after the wife stopped trying in week two of the last attempt at saving the marriage. I waited another 3 more months and we’re still in the same pathetic and degrading cycle.

Does anyone have any advice or (name removed by moderator)ut? Anything provided will be seriously considered.

And before you begin berating me about how even if it’s not a valid marriage I still made a promise to her, yes you are right. I did promise my wife forever and I changed. She shouldn’t have to be the one to suffer. However, as Pope John Paul II stated in his work “Love and Responsibility”:

“The task of the will (to which true love ought to be particularly attractive, because it creates a real opportunity for the will to immerse itself in the good) is to safeguard itself against the destructive influences of those forces (subjectivism/egoism) to safeguard the person against ‘evil love’. (And since love always joins two persons, to protect one’s own person is also to protect the other.)”

Not to mention, continuing to drag this out is simply lieing to her further, only for the rest of the relationship, as compared to one time when we were both immature at the alter years ago…

All that aside, the fact that it’s NOT a valid marriage means God’s grace isn’t present to see us through the hard times. We’d have to manage it by sheer stubbornness. There’s a difference between sacrifice and suffering. Sacrifice is to accept some evil for the sake of a good, whereas suffering is simply subjecting yourself to evil. I don’t think you’ll find anywhere where Jesus wanted us to simply suffer. He was all about sacrifices, but suffering is a different story. I have a hard time seeing any possibility of a greater good coming out of this relationship.

 

[UbiCaritas]

One point: if you were both unbaptized at the time of your marriage, you were not required to follow canonical procedures for marriage or to receive a dispensation in order to marry one another; the Church does not bind non-Catholics to follow Her procedures regarding marriages if both parties aren’t Catholic.

 

[adrift]

One point: if you were both unbaptized at the time of your marriage, you were not required to follow canonical procedures for marriage or to receive a dispensation in order to marry one another; the Church does not bind non-Catholics to follow Her procedures regarding marriages if both parties aren’t Catholic.

Yes this is true, You should see your priest. Your marriage is not sacramental but it is considered a natural married and is presumed valid.

 

[jackydarapper]

First of all pray for your strength.

I understand what you must be going through.

If I may ask, Is there any specific reason for your conversion? It’s just a common question which would arise in anyone’s mind.

Does your child/spouse accompanies when you go to church?

With your description, I feel may be your wife is not joining you to church and doubts that your church going could be due to an affair.

It’s sad that you’re seeing your marriage as a suffering, a burden.

I know you feel it’d be better when you get separated. But, how about working towards making your relationship stronger? Talk to a priest especially the one who handles family issues.

the fact that it’s NOT a valid marriage means God’s grace isn’t present to see us through the hard times

This is not true, God indeed is present and sees what you both are going through irrespective of where you got married.

I will continue…

 

[Brendan_64]

As has been said before, do not automatically assume that your marriage is invalid. That would be for the Church to determine. The fact that a marriage is unhappy doesn’t mean the marriage is invalid.

Personally I think that we should not over-analyse our marriages. We should presume our marriages are valid and work at them from that point of view. If we come to the decision that our marriage is invalid, then we have effectively given up on it.

 

[1ke]

So here I am in an invalid marriage (wife is unbaptized as was I at the time of marriage, no dispensation to marry an unbaptized party,

If you are in an invalid marriage, it is not for this reason. Non Catholics marry validly when they marry each other civilly, baptized or not.

marriage was result of both parties being damaged to the point we really were unable to truly assess what we were getting in to

That can describe most everyone who gets married- not knowing what they are getting into!

and none of the proper forms were followed as required per canon law

Non Catholics are not bound by canon law,

that is following the typical relationship pattern of regular ups and downs; however, the highs we experience are likely barely on par with what a normal relationship experiences as the average moments. This primarily due to it being only a physical relationship with no emotional, intellectual or spiritual connection. I have formed my conscience to the point I am confident that we should not be pursuing the relationship again; however, each time I have brought the D word into the discussion my wife promises to change everything to make things work (which I am against out of the gate, cause she shouldn’t have to change and if she does it will simply cause resentment which will propagate all the issues further…).

I am wondering if you have convinced yourself you are in an invalid marriage so you are now treating it as an invalid marriage and not with the care and feeding it deserves.

Well, you are in a VALID marriage, as far as the information you have thus far presented. So, begin treating the marriage and your wife accordingly. Get into some marriage counseling.

Of course she can grow and change, you did.

But I am also convinced that staying in this relationship will only teach her bad habits and to look for similar relationships herself when she grows up, which is the last thing I want for her.

Well, she is only two. If you and your wife get counseling and change your communication habits, she has many years of good examples to look forward to.

But I just dropped the D word again after the wife stopped trying in week two of the last attempt at saving the marriage. I waited another 3 more months and we’re still in the same pathetic and degrading cycle.

Get counseling. No wonder your wife is suspicious of the Church. You convert and start saying you want a divorce. STOP saying that!

Does anyone have any advice or (name removed by moderator)ut? Anything provided will be seriously considered.

It isn’t just your wife that needs an attitude adjustment. It is you!

All that aside, the fact that it’s NOT a valid marriage means God’s grace isn’t present to see us through the hard times. We’d have to manage it by sheer stubbornness. There’s a difference between sacrifice and suffering. Sacrifice is to accept some evil for the sake of a good, whereas suffering is simply subjecting yourself to evil. I don’t think you’ll find anywhere where Jesus wanted us to simply suffer. He was all about sacrifices, but suffering is a different story. I have a hard time seeing any possibility of a greater good coming out of this relationship.

Clearly the power of suggestion is alive and well. You have created all this in your mind based on the idea you did not have a valid marriage.

You DO have a valid marriage, so start suggesting THAT to yourself and LOVE YOUR WIFE.

 

[Convert_in_99]

If you are in an invalid marriage, it is not for this reason. Non Catholics marry validly when they marry each other civilly, baptized or not.

That can describe most everyone who gets married- not knowing what they are getting into!

Non Catholics are not bound by canon law,

I am wondering if you have convinced yourself you are in an invalid marriage so you are now treating it as an invalid marriage and not with the care and feeding it deserves.

Well, you are in a VALID marriage, as far as the information you have thus far presented. So, begin treating the marriage and your wife accordingly. Get into some marriage counseling.

Of course she can grow and change, you did.

Well, she is only two. If you and your wife get counseling and change your communication habits, she has many years of good examples to look forward to.

Get counseling. No wonder your wife is suspicious of the Church. You convert and start saying you want a divorce. STOP saying that!

It isn’t just your wife that needs an attitude adjustment. It is you!

Clearly the power of suggestion is alive and well. You have created all this in your mind based on the idea you did not have a valid marriage.

You DO have a valid marriage, so start suggesting THAT to yourself and LOVE YOUR WIFE.

I agree with everything that 1Ke has stated!!!

You are being tempted and it is a trap of Satan big time to destroy your VALID marriage! I know from going through the exact same thing myself. I was Catholic when I married, but not very devout. My husband is Protestant, but we married in the Catholic Church. Once I reclaimed my faith I came to feel like it would be best to be married to a Catholic, to the point of obsession and coveting those Catholic marriages I could not have. Then it seriously led me to think about divorce and annulments so I’d be free to marry a Catholic. I almost destroyed our marriage, our VALID marriage over fear and temptations from Satan. And that’s all this is for you as well a TENPTATION FROM THE DEVIL. Tell him to shut up and save your marriage while you still can. I almost lost my marriage and my wonderful husband. I literally almost walked out the door!

Now, realizing all I truly had, and that I was almost tempted to give up, I am just in awe that God would let me have this man that I am so unworthy of. He is a wonderful husband and I wouldn’t trade him for a Catholic any day. Should I have married a Catholic in the beginning, probably. But I can’t imagine something so wonderful as being married to my husband, ceasing to exist. It was maybe not in God’s ordaining will, but he certainly permitted it. He blessed it and made it holy. I realize my husband is not likely to become Catholic. So I focus on helping him become the best Christian he can be, and right now that means encouraging him in his Journey with God as it is right now, yes even though he is Protestant!

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I would recommend stop mentioning divorce. If you keep mentioning divorce every time there is a problem, it is going to get old. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if she becomes numb to you saying you want a divorce. Saying you want a divorce because there are issues is not the way to go, IMO. Bringing up divorce on a consistent basis is a sure way to build up resentment.

Perhaps talk to her about what is going on in her mind and really understanding how she feels. Is it possible to get away for a weekend to reconnect? Communication is key. Talking things out and discussing solutions (not divorce) on how things can be improved. Each party is responsible for their own behavior and actions. Start your statements with, " feel that when you ____________," instead of, “You do this or that, etc.”

 

[Convert_in_99]

I would recommend stop mentioning divorce. If you keep mentioning divorce every time there is a problem, it is going to get old. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if she becomes numb to you saying you want a divorce. Saying you want a divorce because there are issues is not the way to go, IMO. Bringing up divorce on a consistent basis is a sure way to build up resentment.

This is so very true. There is always going to be an irreparable hole in my husbands heart from all the threats I gave to leave him over the years for a Catholic man. It’s like a ripped shirt, you can repair it, but there will alway be some awkward stitching that shows. I am so incredibly sorry for the pain and hurt I have caused my husband over the past ten years. I know things will never be as good as they could have been because of it. I might have even prevented him from becoming Catholic, because I being Catholic and hurting him so much, was certainly not making the faith look appealing. He even used to attend Mass with me on Sunday’s, but has come to not want anything to do with Catholicism. I very well may have turned him further away from the Catholic Faith.

But now the damage is done and irreparable. I wonder now if it would have been different. If he might be Catholic now or at least still going to Church with me, had it not been for my horrible threats and actively seeking to end our marriage. I will never know. And I have to live with that guilt. All I can do now is silently pray for him, since denomination discussions only lead to heated arguments. In the meantime I will have to stress my love for him, my fidelity to him, and try to repair some of the damage I have done emotionally, even if I can’t repair the damage I may have done Spiritually.

 

[Eliza10]

Gregory Popcak’s counseling at Pastoral Solutions is just the thing. You do it by phone. Good Catholic counseling for a complicated situation, emotionally and spiritually. You will get wise, informed counsel - which is what you need.

 

[BShep]

These are all really great points everyone! I did not realize the critical pieces I was missing in regards to validity of natural marriages and non-Catholics not being bound by the same forms as Catholics when contracting the marriage.

This is why I reached out here, I knew I was missing some key piece of the puzzle! I have tried speaking with my priest about it, but he’s more of the business oriented type of priest than the pastoral type and frankly tends to enjoy talking more than listening. So all of your feedback is priceless to me. Thank you so much!

Yes, I worry that I am overanalyzing things but at the same time I know that failing to properly form my conscience is in effect failing to utilize the ability to reason that God gave me to come to a sound conclusion. The point that’s been driving me is that I can’t not make a decision one way or the other. Doing otherwise is potentially subjecting myself to making a wrong decision by simply making no decision at all and ignoring everything, which is basically mental laziness which can contribute to spiritual laziness.

As to what caused me to convert in the first place, my wife began staying out late, acting very suspiscious and fights began to culminate in her threatening to leave. This trend kept going until she stayed out overnight on February 13th and didn’t come home until 8:30 on valentines day while the daughter and I were eating breakfast. No, I didn’t confront her, though she came in the door and was very defensive out of the gate. That week culminated in more arguements where I was inquiring as to what was going on, at which point she committed to moving out. She moved out on April 3rd, which was the earliest she could get an apartment right next to work.

The moment she moved out, I was shattered. I litterally felt like my world was falling apart. It was a month and a half later when I came to the conclusion that we needed to divorce, because we’d already tried a couples counseling session and she didn’t want to do anymore. She agreed she’s emotionally abusive towards me and said she saw no need to stop. So I started moving towards divorce. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve not thrown that word around lightly nor often. I breaks my heart to be at the point where I truly feel it may be the best thing to do.

So when I mentioned divorce, I told her that I would be taking my family vacation (with extended family, had been planned for a year and she refused to go from the outset) to make a decision one way or the other. She decided to drive out and surprise me and the whole family at the beach, I guess as a romantic display and began trying to convince me to let her move back in and work on the relationship.

So, despite the awkward position she put me in and disrespect she showed me and my extended family by pulling that kind of stunt when she hadn’t paid to come along and they all had as well as not respecting my boundaries, I acquiesed. She moved back in after we got back and we worked on things for two weeks before they simply reverted back to how they were with no further effort. When I tried to continue the progress she’d simply say she was too tired, had a headache, or whatever other reason she could come up with to avoid me. (Literally, we’d get home from work and she’d spend the whole evening laying in bed… Every day.) This continued until things progressed to the point where everytime I said anything to her or even looked at her she’d say something cross to me. Thus, right back to where we were before she moved out and simply attempting to ignore the issues in the hope they’d disappear on their own.

My spouse doesn’t go to Church with me, she refuses to. I have been taking my daughter and she loves getting to see other children her age. I haven’t pressed the issue with my spouse a single time. I’m not about to try to pressure her into anything. I can’t help her out, only God can and that has been my belief from the start when it comes to her own potential conversion.

I must admit, part of what concerns me is my parents history. My parents are divorced. They divorced after 17 years of marriage. 5 years in, which happens to be right where I’m at, my mother decided to plan a weekend getaway to decide on whether she needed to divorce my father, who was staying out until 11 every night and basically was never around for the family (not work related…). When my father found out, he dumped my brother and I on his parents and crashed her getaway to convince her not to leave. Romantic, sure. But misleading and done for the wrong reasons. In this case, my Dad’s response was simply based on fear of losing what he had, not out of a selfless love for the “other”. I believe the same can be said of my spouse’s response.

Back to the story, my mother stayed with him and he ended up messing around on her and leaving her 12 years later. This concerns me because it’s not wise to ignore historical patterns and my relationship and my spouses actions and responses to my actions have followed that pattern to a tee thus far. Given the fact that we’re NOT really compatible at a very rudimentary level, I have a hard time believing that 12 years down the road I won’t be in the same situation my mother was in…

I’ll try that phone counseling thing out! Sounds like a great option!

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

If she has been going straight to bed after work, there is a chance that there is the possibility that she could be depressed. Of course, only a medical professional can determine that. Also, could it be possible that she is having medical issues that she isn’t discussing with you (other than possibly being depressed?)?

 

[nodito]

BShep,

Have you considered that if you are in a valid marriage (and you have to assume that you are), then you would not be permitted to remarry? Sometimes it can seem like the grass is greener on the other side, but the fact is that as a married man you’re married for life. This wife is your wife until one of you dies. If one of you asks for a divorce, it’s still far from given that you’d get an annulment or ever be free to remarry, and then you’re talking about raising your daughter in a fractured home for her entire childhood.

I think your distinction between sacrifice and suffering is flawed, and especially in your case because any suffering you experience would be for the sake of maintaining a loving relationship with your daughter’s mother, which your daughter needs and deserves.

How are you loving your wife? How did you love her today? How has becoming Catholic made you a better husband? You can’t do a lot about her attitudes and actions, but you’re still responsible for your actions and you still have to be loving and kind to her even when she isn’t to you.

I’d recommend Retrouvaille, counseling for yourself (and your wife if she’ll go with), and committing to a daily act of overt love and service for your wife.

God bless.

 

[BShep]

Thanks, Nodito. Very good points.

Out of the gate, I will state that there have been no thoughts of establishing a new relationship if my spouse and I were to divorce; to the point where I legitimately would have no problem living single and celibate for the remainder of my life.

As to how becoming Catholic has made me a better husband. Well… We’re getting a little personal here, but why not?

Let’s suffice it to say, I was into a lot of horrible things in the past that were offensive to marriage at a very rudimentary level. I’m coming up on a year clean of those habits. I had one lapse about 5 months ago that caused me a great deal of concern, not only because I had a lapse, but because of my wife’s response when I did. She literally went out of her way to come sit in my lap, give me a hug and kiss (affection is simply something she doesn’t and has never done) and say “Welcome back, Honey. I’m glad you’re back to yourself. Does this mean you’re done with the Church stuff?”

I remember those words because they echoed through my mind for days…

I was already defeated by what I had just done, but her response broke my heart because it told me that she would never truly understand me. She values me how I am at my worst and despises the good things I try to cultivate in myself. It makes it difficult for me to stay on the right path.

I’m a very laid back guy, but I am quick to anger at times when it comes to unreasonable expectations, to include the adjective “uptight” as that is simply someone who is unreasonably concerned about something. (That’s the best way I can think of to describe what my trigger normally is.) My wife is pretty dang uptight and is a control freak. As you can probably surmise, there have been a lot of unreasonable expectations in my relationship on behalf of both myself and my spouse.

I have learned to identify that trigger and to recognize that my aggravated responses that typically follow are a result of a simple emotion and it’s the engagement of my will to enact that emotion that causes a lot of our arguments. I’ve trimmed those out now. Probably at 90% of the time I’ve got it under control, I do still slip, but I’m not perfect and with as often as I had let angry emotions overcome my willpower in the past, overcoming the strength of that habit has been a constant challenge and is something I continue to battle with.