Marriage and spirituality

[jesusmademe]

Has the Church ever said that it is more difficult or less easy to go to Heaven if you live as a Married Catholic with children than if you lived in a monastery as a mon or nun?
How then are ther spouse and child(ren) an obstacle? It sounds like a weird view on Marriage.

 

[Rau]

Has the Church ever said that it is more difficult or less easy to go to Heaven if you live as a Married Catholic with children than if you lived in a monastery as a mon or nun?

Not that I’ve heard.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Sacraments are vehicles of Grace that help us toward heaven.

 

[Anicette]

If we look on the history, definitely yes.

For eg, I have one XIXth century pious manual for youngs girls after she left the convent (to unederstand as she has finished her schooling). The author, a priest said that choosing the convent is the easier way to the Heaven. He said that marriage seems a romantical option, but he warns girls that marriage does not always make women happy, you could end up with a difficult husband and full of earthly problems. And if they doubt what he said, just aks married women around them.

It is only recently (so since the second XXth century part) that marriage had been valorised qand present as equal as religious or sacerdotal life. The coming of marriage of love in the western societies as the norm, and the works of John Paul II, among others had played a great role in it.

How then are ther spouse and child(ren) an obstacle?

Many ways. As I said it is very recent that almost all spouses choose themselves out of love in western societies.
Many couples have disagreement on many things.
Many don’t know how to communicate well.
It is difficult to have a marriage when the partners are exactly on the same page on the main topics. And it include religious life. Our catholic religion influence greatly who we wants to live our marriage, who we wants to live family dynamic, gender roles, sexuality, procreation, to raise child, the parctice of our faith both as private and public. A spouse can easily become an obstacle.

And divorce rates in our modern societies is very high. It become increasingly a miracle to stay married until one’s death.

So NO, the way we live our marriage can influence a lot how a Godly person we are, and and an hypothesis (because God decide) what our chances to Heaven are.

It sounds like a weird view on Marriage.

It is not weird, because as I explained marriage is hard.

Religious life seems to have less moral dilemna, but we should not enter it without any real vocation.
And all the crisis such as sex scandals among the clergy makes us aware that it is not an easy path too.

 

[jesusmademe]

I ask all of this after reading Alone with God http://www.camaldolese.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/HFHflyer.pdf

In the book three terms are mentioned: christiana vita, religiosa vita and eremitica vita.

The book quote Paolo Guistiniani: “It is one thing to speak of men and another of their state of life. When we say that religious life is more perfect than secular life, we compare one state of life to another. But we do not mean that every religious is more perfect then all seculars. For we do not doubt that in a less perfect state there are men more perfect than those who live in a more perfect state. We believe that many married persons are more perfect than some who are widowed, and yet the state of widowhood is superior to that of marriage.”

But the St Paul says: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one.” (25-28)”

How can anything be more perfect than “loving a spouse as Christ loved the Church”?
Where is the argument for this?
The book even says that eremitical life is more perfect than religious life (the cenobitic life).
I cannot see how reciting/chanting the whole Liturgy of the Hours is more perfect than what a a married person does. But then it even says that a widowed state is more perfect than that of the married state. A widow doesn’t really recite/chant the whole LoTH so it must be something else that they are thinking about.

The author, a priest said that choosing the convent is the easier way to the Heaven. He said that marriage seems a romantical option, but he warns girls that marriage does not always make women happy, you could end up with a difficult husband and full of earthly problems.

So a monk or nun can never have any earthly problems? Monks and nuns can actually have a lot of problems and issues. Some people talk as if “religious” are free from all earthly problems which I think is false.

Many couples have disagreement on many things.
Many don’t know how to communicate well.

And you think that the “religious” never have those issues?

And divorce rates in our modern societies is very high. It become increasingly a miracle to stay married until one’s death.

many people leave “religious” life.
It become increasingly a miracle to stay in the “religious” life until one’s death.

 

[jesusmademe]

But a monk doesn’t have a spouse to die for!
Sure, a monk can say/chant more Liturgucal prayer but Jesus want sacrifices. So I do not believe that religuous life is a more perfect state. I say that a life with too much worrying, too little silence and too little Litirgical prayer. But a monk cam be worried as well.

 

[TheLittleLady]

but Jesus want sacrifices.

Actually, Scripture tells us that He desires mercy over sacrifice in both Hosea and Matthew. Jesus wants us to love, to love radically.

 

[Anicette]

Anicette:

The author, a priest said that choosing the convent is the easier way to the Heaven. He said that marriage seems a romantical option, but he warns girls that marriage does not always make women happy, you could end up with a difficult husband and full of earthly problems.

So a monk or nun can never have any earthly problems? Monks and nuns can actually have a lot of problems and issues. Some people talk as if “religious” are free from all earthly problems which I think

I give the point of view of this XIXth century priest, not my point of view. And honestly that is not only one point of view, many religious people see things like that at this time.

And in all honesty, of course every individual can have earthly problems. But the big difference is that monk and nun are singles. Of course they can have big problem with submission to their superior, as obeissance is one of their vows. But the big difference is that in marriage we are TWO people who have to make their life together. Not easy! And certainly not easier in modern societies that are break by many moral choices in the name of “freedom”. And after 1+1=3, and then 4 and then… All additions of children are a new challenge on familial harmony!

Anicette:

Many couples have disagreement on many things.

Many don’t know how to communicate well.

And you think that the “religious” never have those issues?

The same, they can have disagreements with their brothers and sister and their superior, and it should be very hard on a cloistered environment but not exactly the same.

I guess that their faith and prayer life can be a help to reconnect to their brothers even if tensions and divergences exist. (or I hope so!)

And divorce rates in our modern societies is very high. It become increasingly a miracle to stay married until one’s death.

many people leave “religious” life.
It become increasingly a miracle to stay in the “religious” life until one’s death.

I completely disgree with you!

Sure it was a huge problem is some crisis time such as in the 1960’s and 1970’s.
Some religious congregations such as the carmelits have many leavings…

Where I lived the divorce rate are up to 50%. And in some others europeans countries it is much more. definitely there is not 50% of priests who are leaving the religious life!!

It is not a miracle to stay faithfull to our vows. What is a miracle is a youing person who wants to follow a vocation. What is hard is a young seminarian and maybe more a religious novice that finally said their vows after trying religious life…

I don’t know for convents, but in the dioceses I had lived, I have NEVER been aware a a priest who leave his sacerdoce willingly. But some were prevented from active ministry because of a trial or suspicion of sex abuse.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Anicette]

But a monk doesn’t have a spouse to die for!

Sure if every married person think like that, the divorce rate would be far less.

Sure, a monk can say/chant more Liturgucal prayer but Jesus want sacrifices.

I don’t see that as a paradox. Sure monks have much more sacrifices to make that average married people. Liberty, family life etc…

And honestly when we live, work and have a family in the world, the spiritual life often decrease because of too much more others things to do, or the mind busy to something else.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

I can only speak as a married woman. My husband guides me every day toward heaven. I am infinitely better because of his love, friendship, and spiritual leadership.

 

[Katie777]

I was taught vocations are religious or marriage.
If you live a holy married life it is equal to a religious vocation.
But marriage is indeed a sacrament. Single people too can have a Holy Vocation to share the love of Jesus to others and be self giving.
Otherwise only religious would be saints, right?

 

[jesusmademe]

I don’t know for convents, but in the dioceses I had lived, I have NEVER been aware a a priest who leave his sacerdoce willingly. But some were prevented from active ministry because of a trial or suspicion of sex abuse.

I know of two Priest in the local diocese who do not perform their Priestly duties anynore. They left or whatever we call it.

 

[jesusmademe]

I can only speak as a married woman. My husband guides me every day toward heaven. I am infinitely better because of his love, friendship, and spiritual leadership.

Just lovely to hear this.
Cardinal Arborelius says that a secular society will have a higher “divorce” rate since in such a society many will look for a happiness and joy in a spouse that only really comes from God.
I find this fascinating. People really have the wrong view of what Marriage should be like.
What do you think?

 

[jesusmademe]

Actually, Scripture tells us that He desires mercy over sacrifice in both Hosea and Matthew. Jesus wants us to love, to love radically.

How do you use the term “sacrifice”?
I use it in this sense: you take up your daily cross and unite yourself to the cross of our Lord.
This I think is the kind of sacrifice He wants.
Psalm 50 (51) says that animal sacrifices is not what God really want. He wants a contrite and humble heart.

And honestly when we live, work and have a family in the world, the spiritual life often decrease because of too much more others things to do, or the mind busy to something else.

Please give an example.
So being a “worker” like St Joseph is taking our attention from more important things?

I was taught vocations are religious or marriage.
If you live a holy married life it is equal to a religious vocation.
But marriage is indeed a sacrament. Single people too can have a Holy Vocation to share the love of Jesus to others and be self giving.
Otherwise only religious would be saints, right?

Read the quote from the book.
The question is only: why is religious life said to be a more peefect state than the married state.
What does the Church actually officially say on this topic?

 

[TheLittleLady]

more peefect state

I used this analogy in another thread.

On the table you place four watertight vessels.

A shot glass.

A Route 44 Styrofoam cup.

A punch bowl.

A 50-gallon drum.

You then pour water into each one, right up to the top where only the surface tension keeps the vessel from overflowing.

They are all perfectly full.

Is the 50-gallon drum “more perfect” because it has a greater capacity to hold the water?

A person who does not have the obligations of a spouse and children has more time to spend in prayer and spiritual growth because all they have to do is keep up the responsibilities of a job. The professed religious person has even more capacity simply because of their state of life, they are not going to get fired if they are late for work, they do not have the same cares that we secular folks have.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

I think it is rare for two people to spend years loving selflessly. Please do not read any personal pride in my response. I am a very flawed person. Marriage, for me, has always been a partnership. Someone posted recently something to the effect of the notion of a married woman not having close male friends in protection of marriage is “silly”. Fine, I’m silly. But, every decision I make effects my husband as an individual and us as a unit. He always knows where I am and what I am doing, and I have the same information on him. I’m not saying all marriages must operate likewise, but my husband and I take the one flesh thing to heart. There is much self sacrifice and self denial, but for me the reward is worth it all. We had our first date and were engaged six weeks later, married six months after that…twenty years ago. Whilst we’ve been extremely blessed in our marriage, we’ve had an inordinate amount of suffering. I like to believe God blessed me with my husband to help me endure everything.

 

[Anicette]

Anicette:

And honestly when we live, work and have a family in the world, the spiritual life often decrease because of too much more others things to do, or the mind busy to something else.

Please give an example.
So being a “worker” like St Joseph is taking our attention from more important things?

My life experience for eg.
And the state of the Church. Who are people who practice more? Who are the more involved in the Church? Who care more for religious things?
Retired people are the most representative group in the most western countries. Housewifes, students who don’t have to work at the same time. To conclude the more you are out of business work, the more you are (name removed by moderator)licated in the Church.

It is not a coincidence if the religious practice plunged when the mothers goes on the majority to join the workforce. it is not the single factor of course, but it plays.

The more you are implicated in the world, the more you will have to compromise with your faith and values, and you will have less time for personal devotion and community cult.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

And honestly when we live, work and have a family in the world, the spiritual life often decrease because of too much more others things to do, or the mind busy to something else.

My experience is the opposite. My greatest spiritual growth has been ignited by my role as a wife, mother, and psychologist. I am vastly more aware and focussed upon the spiritual life than when I was single and in active ministry. If God calls a person to a vocation, He doesn’t give them the vocation with the intent that one is less focussed on spiritual matters. He doesn’t relegate the married to secondary spirituality. I believe it was Pope JPII who called the family the ‘domestic church’. Was not Mary herself fulfilling her spiritual calling as a wife and mother?

 

[jesusmademe]

My experience is the opposite. My greatest spiritual growth has been ignited by my role as a wife, mother, and psychologist. I am vastly more aware and focussed upon the spiritual life than when I was single and in active ministry.

So you are a psychologist. How do you explain the fact that you became more spiritual in marriage? It seems that we humans long to have duties and follow rules and laws (even if they have oppositional defiant disorder. They do have more difficulty with it but long for it deep in their hearts).
Marriage, as I understand it, gives you more duties and more rules to follow. Many people envy the people of the religious state since they have all the rules to follow. We want a life based on rules and duties. We want an ordered life. We want routines. But only if they make sense to us.
What do you think?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

For eg, I have one XIXth century pious manual for youngs girls after she left the convent (to unederstand as she has finished her schooling). The author, a priest said

This is one priest writing his opinion in a “Pious Manual”. It is not a statement of official Church teaching because one priest said it.