Marriage in Trouble. Catholic advice needed

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gmmartin42

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Okay, its taken me some time to go ahead and post my situation on this Board, but I’ll give it a shot. I’ve spoke with a “professional” marriage counselor, who told me to get a good attorney. Not the advice I wanted to hear.

Over the past year or so, my marriage of 4 years had begun to crumble, slowly. My wife and I have a 2-½-girl year old who, as you can imagine, is my entire life. In August of 2004, my father in law quit his job, moved cross-country to California, and has since become an overbearing strain on my relationship with my wife. There were some issues that he was dealing with at home that may have drove him to make the move. I also think he had some sort of mid-life crisis. Who knows? All I know is since he moved out to CA, he has tried to convince my wife that his life is so much better out there, that if she stays in the Midwest with me she’ll regret it forever, and that I should quit my job (if I truly love her) and get an apartment out there as well, until I find a full time job. By the way, I currently have a good paying job, and am finishing my graduate studies this fall. There is no need to move, nor any reason, other than my wife threatens to divorce me every other day if I do not move. Also, we do not have any marital issues that should divide us. Its not like there was domestic abuse, or adultery on any of our part. Her father and I never got along, and just yesterday he told me, in front of her, that I was the biggest mistake of her life, and that she is better off with him and her mother.

What can I do, or where can I go to get some good, Catholic advice. I have tried to convince her to speak with our Parish priest, but she declines to do so. We have a new priest, he’s only been at our parish for only 2 months, and she said that she does not want him to get a negative view of our family. She refused to speak with our former, retired priest, because it would be “embarrassing” since he also baptized her, and married us.

I fear that she is going to leave me for her mother and father, now “permanently” living in CA. Plus, she and I have our baby to raise. I just do not know where to turn. I mean, we took vows before God “for better or for worse”, but she is not living up to the vows we made together. Where are some good resources in the Catholic Church that I can turn to about this? Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks-
 
Please try a marriage encounter weekend. There will be a priest there that most likely will not know you at all.
wwme.org/

marriage-encounter.org/

If your marriage is major trouble/on the verge of divorce I would recommend retrouvaille. Very similar to marriage encounter but set up for troubled marriages.
retrouvaille.org/
 
Do you and your wife have any women friends who might support your position? Women often listen to other women with these sorts of things. She needs another woman to tell her to cut the imbilical cord to her parents and get on living her life with you and your baby. Find such a gal fast and get her talking, that’s my advise. Another man friend might do the trick too, if you know anyone she would listen to. You and your little family have all my prayers and good wishes!
 
Della-

Thanks, yes there is a male friend of ours that has listened to us both. He’s a neighbor of ours, but not Catholic, but told me the same thing about getting on with “our” lives, not with her parents. I should note that his experience with his wife 25 years previous, was similar to ours. My in-laws are immigrants to this country, as are his wife’s. My wife just refuses to listen, and that if I do not move with her, then any imminent divorce is my fault. But how responsible is it for me to just pick up and move at the drop of a hat, and put my life, and the lives of my wife and daughter in jeopardy so my wife can live next to her dad?
 
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Della:
Do you and your wife have any women friends who might support your position? Women often listen to other women with these sorts of things. She needs another woman to tell her to cut the imbilical cord to her parents and get on living her life with you and your baby. Find such a gal fast and get her talking, that’s my advise. Another man friend might do the trick too, if you know anyone she would listen to. You and your little family have all my prayers and good wishes!
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Just a few things to add to this. If you talk to anyone that knows your wife you must make sure she knows about and is alright with you sharing the details your marital problems. If you don’t you’d be commiting a sin.

Second, make sure that the friend you talk to has a strong morals and understanding of what the Church teaches in regards to marriage. The wrong person could take “her side” and only encourage her to divorce you and move to CA.
 
Mt-

Thanks. Yeah, thats why I posted this message on the board for some kind of guidance on this. Our “friend” is really, shall I say, lacking in faith department. He is not Catholic, and as much as he is a nice and understanding guy, just not providing answers consistent with our faith. I just don’t know how or what I would do for the rest of my life if my wife and daughter left me. The religious consequences are overbearing for me to even consider. The thought of divorce is just dreadful. I never thought it would happen to me, you know? The idea of being in some kind of negative light in the Church is also dreadful for me. Not being able to have more children or be married is also difficult to face. I appreciate everyone’s comments so far.
 
I’m in a military family and so I tend to think home is wherever family is. I do not know your family situation, so take this only as a consideration…

Ever think about making her a deal? Say, after you finish your studies then hire a ‘head-hunter’ for a job. If a position becomes open, that you would move there for say, 3 years. If you weren’t happy then you would move back. My in-laws did this when he wanted to move to FL and she wanted to stay where they were. They agreed to move for 2 years (I think) and if she still wasn’t happy, they would move back.

Also your priest may know of a Catholic counselor for you (or both of you) to go to. That way you can get sound advice without feeling ‘judged’. It sounds as if there are other issues that may need to be resolved, too, and that moving (or not moving) won’t fix them all.
 
What are the reasons she is giving for uprooting your life to move to California?

She knows you want to stay. You’ve explained it’s to finish your studies and because you have a job.

If her only reason is because Dad says so, then you have a problem, and the way you say there are no other issues in your marriage is not really true if right after that you state you and her father never got along. There was trouble before you married. But that’s neither here nor there at the moment.

So…here’s what I suggest…
Go online…go to a major insurance company website and plug in the zip code of the area her father lives in…print out the quotes (you may have to place a phone call to get the numbers)…for homeowners insurance, renters insurance, automobile insurance and life insurance.

Next…call up a listing of job postings for that zip code…
And then…go to a major grocery store website in that area and start pulling up their prices for the foods you’re used to having…

Go to the School district website for the zip code by her father…print out the school report cards, the costs…

Find the local medical clinic/hospital in the area…find out what insurance programs they accept…get costs for basic services - appointments, immunizations, medications…

Go to the utility sites for the area - you’ll be stunned at the cost of gas and electricity in CA… same for property taxes for the zip code…chances are it will be substantially more than you’ve ever paid here.

Pull the information in a report format…
and do the same for what you’re paying for the same services now.

Show the information to your wife and ask her to honestly show how, with the jobs available there, you are supposed to be able to provide for the family if you move right now…Dad is suggesting you live off savings ‘until you get a job’…she can now see how long those savings will last…

Your wife, when faced with reality, could not possible continue living in this fantasy her father has whipped up for her.

What I don’t understand is what is her father saying to her that convinces her she cannot be happy in the midwest??? He’s playing on a weakness, a fear of hers…surely, you must know what that is…
 
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gmmartin42:
Della-

Thanks, yes there is a male friend of ours that has listened to us both. He’s a neighbor of ours, but not Catholic, but told me the same thing about getting on with “our” lives, not with her parents. I should note that his experience with his wife 25 years previous, was similar to ours. My in-laws are immigrants to this country, as are his wife’s. My wife just refuses to listen, and that if I do not move with her, then any imminent divorce is my fault. But how responsible is it for me to just pick up and move at the drop of a hat, and put my life, and the lives of my wife and daughter in jeopardy so my wife can live next to her dad?
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May I ask what culture your wife and her family are from? In many foreign cultures the father is the head of the whole family, even of son in laws. Your wife may not understand the American way of nuclear families living separate lives from grandparents. If this is the case, you may not be able to break through centuries of tradition.

How about your family? Your mom and dad? Would telling her that she married into your family and so your dad is the head of the clan cut any ice with her? Not that you should deceive her, but maybe if you could get her to see things from that perspective it might help her understand the American way of forming families instead of clinging to the traditions of her old one.

And I don’t think your friend being a non-Catholic really bears on the advice he’s giving you. I think he sees it as strictly a cultural misunderstanding, and he’s probably right. You know, a person doesn’t have to be a person of faith to have a bit of wisdom. If he’s right, it hardly matters if he is a Catholic or worships trees. Truth is truth no matter who tells it.
 
Well I apologize in advance being as I am not Catholic but in reading this the verse about “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife” came to mind. You are a family and when you were married you made each other second only to God. If her sole reason for threatening to divorce is to follow her fathers wishes then obviously this is contrary to the bible. If there are legitimate reasons (Job opportunity, education not available where you are) then you have a different matter, however let me tell you California is no cakewalk. I have lived here all my life and depending on the area you are in it can have some strengths, but let me give you some figures to go off of…

In the Central Valley (where the majority of reasonable* housing is presently) the median house price is between $350-450,000. In California the number of interest only loans has gone from 2% to about 40% in the last 4 years so most people in the state are essentially renting in one form or another. As soon as the interest rates go up there is going to be stabilization of the market but for now statewide you are looking at about 550,000 median house cost. Rent is about $1200 for a two bedroom house plus utilities that can get pretty bad when summer hits and the temperature hits 110 for days at a time (try sleeping when it’s 85 degrees out 😦 ) My wife and I are fortunate, we have a small apartment for $800 a month. Utilities are also a bit more out here since utilities were privatized and we had a power scare.

Schools will vary greatly depending on what area you go to but overall California ranks about 48 in the nation for education quality. As a former sub I can say I don’t see that getting much better any time soon. Teachers have to teach for the next round of tests that come through instead of teaching actual subject matter.

Lastly if you live in the Valley long enough you will get some form of asthma or allergies. It finally got me after 26 years but it got me all the same. We have the largest population with respiratory problems in the US so there are health issues to think about. Also the job market here isn’t what it used to be. Again this will depend on what area you go to, but while big cities offer more jobs they are also much more expensive so you have to balance the two.

I live in the Sacramento area so if you have any specific questions on the area PM me.
 
All of these cost of living argument are simply practical, and none of it gets to the root of the problem. You need to get to the root of the problem.

Why is your wife prioritizing her father’s wishes over yours? She committed to you in marriage, and you are the father of her daughter.

And you also made a commitment. For your part in it, was there ever any expectation with your wife that she would always be close to her parents? Are her parents getting on in age, and she feeling the responsibility of taking care of them?

These are tough issues. I just argued with my wife this morning over an in-law issue. Her parents are also overbearing, but I tend to overcompensate by pushing them away… which isn’t fair to my wife at all.

I like the suggestion of seeking help. I don’t know anything about Marriage Encounter, but it comes up a lot in situations like these. I’d check it out if I were you.

Forget the economic and practical arguments for not moving… get to the root of it all, ASAP, because it sounds like you are about to lose your family otherwise.

Pete
 
Sounds like another case of overbearing in-laws. They can make life h*ll as they did in my first marriage.

You two need to see a marriage counsellor or your wife needs to see a psychologist. It seems she needs to become more assertive and learn to say no to daddy.

I would also strongly suggest that you pick up the phone and tell your father in law to butt out of your marriage. Tell him you made up your mind and are going stay put, end of story, period.
 
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Celeste88:
You two need to see a marriage counsellor or your wife needs to see a psychologist. It seems she needs to become more assertive and learn to say no to daddy.

I would also strongly suggest that you pick up the phone and tell your father in law to butt out of your marriage. Tell him you made up your mind and are going stay put, end of story, period.
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These two pieces of advice are at complete odds with each other. If you want her to be more assertive, you don’t pick up the phone and do the job for her.

We don’t know the full story… all we know is that your wife is saying she wants to move to California. Don’t discount her feelings and what she is saying by assigning it all to her father. She is speaking the words, and if you respect her, you will work it out with her.

Pete
 
I understand, to a point, how she feels. I live in the mid-west and I grew up, and all my family, live in CT. I am very close to my family, cousins in the same school, aunts and uncles over the house all the time etc. I miss my dad alot and I’m sorry that my children won’t have the benefit of being so close to their extended family that I had. I used to think that if my husband really loved me (and with what we were dealing with in our marriage I needed him to declare his love for me) he would make every effort to move even if he didn’t really want to. Basically, my happiness and desires trumped his. Thankfully I realized how selfish I was being and matured. He couldn’t tell me that though, I had to discover it and work through it myself.

At one point I tried to “work up” the finiancial figures to see what a move “back home” would cost, what type of salary we would need, schools etc. I have come to the conclusion that, at this time, its just not possible and maybe it wouldn’t really be such a good thing.

Why? Well, first off the cost of living is significantly higher on the east coast (west coast is pretty high too. Last I heard they were offering 60 year mortgages because people couldn’t afford 30 year). I am a SAHM right now, if we moved I would **have **to work to make ends meet. That’s not even living really well, that’s just getting by. My girls would have to attend public school because we couldn’t afford to send them to a Catholic school. There are other reasons but I won’t list them here. I think maybe her dad is “coloring” things rosy or its easier to live and only think of one person.

I suggest Retrouvaille, it was listed above. It really helped us stabilize our marriage at a difficult time. One of the rules is no threats of divorce. This threat is counter-productive to the relationship. And yes, some people need to be reminded of that.
 
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Pete2:
All of these cost of living argument are simply practical, and none of it gets to the root of the problem. You need to get to the root of the problem.

Pete
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Yes, there’s a deeper problem there which needs to be addressed, but if this wife will not even consider his wishes over her fathers with regard to uprooting the family, then she’s not likely to rush into therapy for him.

In the meantime, the OP can show, with real facts and figures, why a move would not be in the family’s best interest, especially hers, without having to touch upon what he wants.

Too many people do not realize the impact of the cost of living on a family. Sometimes, when it’s in black and white, you can set aside emotions when making a decision, as the previous poster noted.

Our family left the west coast, and our entire extended family, because we wanted a simpler life for our kids, and a healthier one. We spend a good month every other year on vacation with the family to maintain ties, but we are so grateful to be where we are.
 
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YinYangMom:
In the meantime, the OP can show, with real facts and figures, why a move would not be in the family’s best interest, especially hers, without having to touch upon what he wants.
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Ok… so what do you do when the wife says: “So the issue is cost? Well, my dad said that we can move in with him.” Or, “My dad told us he’d pay our rent while we get on our feet”… or, “I’m talking about family and you’re talking about money? And you call yourself a Catholic?”

Bringing up a false objection doesn’t do anybody any good.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
Ok… so what do you do when the wife says: “So the issue is cost? Well, my dad said that we can move in with him.” Or, “My dad told us he’d pay our rent while we get on our feet”… or, “I’m talking about family and you’re talking about money? And you call yourself a Catholic?”

Bringing up a false objection doesn’t do anybody any good.

Pete
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What false objection???

So she says, “My dad said we can move in with him.”
Take it under consideration…play out the scenario…this dad who dislikes the husband would let them live under his roof rent-free? What about food costs? What about the schools for the kids? What about medical insurance - dad can’t help with that, what about car insurance?

The schooling situation for the kids is a big deal for moms…their child is 2 1/2…wait till she finds out what the class sizes are and what the waiting lists are for pre-school, and the conditions of those schools. Is Daddy going to pay for Catholic education? It’s way more expensive on the West Coast.

There are many other variables than rent/mortgage. Take out those items from the budget for what, 3 months? 6?..and is there enough money in savings to cover everything else???

As for the ‘you call yourself Catholic’ argument, well HELLO! Being Catholic meant leaving your family to become ONE, she has no leg to stand on with that argument.

The OP didn’t mention anything about ‘family’ being the reason she wants to go with daddy. What I recall is Dad is in a mid-life crisis and up & left his existing life for a drastic change, and now wants daughter with him. I don’t know what that did to Mom or other siblings. We know Dad doesn’t like hubby and never did.

So yes, there’s a whole lot more going on here than just money, but money is a valid argument for sticking around as is rather than throwing it out the window on a whim.
 
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YinYangMom:
What false objection???

So she says, “My dad said we can move in with him.”
Take it under consideration…play out the scenario…this dad who dislikes the husband would let them live under his roof rent-free? What about food costs? What about the schools for the kids? What about medical insurance - dad can’t help with that, what about car insurance?

The schooling situation for the kids is a big deal for moms…their child is 2 1/2…wait till she finds out what the class sizes are and what the waiting lists are for pre-school, and the conditions of those schools. Is Daddy going to pay for Catholic education? It’s way more expensive on the West Coast.

There are many other variables than rent/mortgage. Take out those items from the budget for what, 3 months? 6?..and is there enough money in savings to cover everything else???

As for the ‘you call yourself Catholic’ argument, well HELLO! Being Catholic meant leaving your family to become ONE, she has no leg to stand on with that argument.

The OP didn’t mention anything about ‘family’ being the reason she wants to go with daddy. What I recall is Dad is in a mid-life crisis and up & left his existing life for a drastic change, and now wants daughter with him. I don’t know what that did to Mom or other siblings. We know Dad doesn’t like hubby and never did.

So yes, there’s a whole lot more going on here than just money, but money is a valid argument for sticking around as is rather than throwing it out the window on a whim.
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Well, you can certainly create 100 different reasons for the wife not to want to move to CA. But this all really has nothing to do with moving to CA. Because even if the OP does move to CA to satisfy the wife, then there is going to be something else the father-in-law wants the couple to do, and then something else he wants them to do… That is a downward spiral. Alternatively, if the OP is able to trick the wife into deciding not to move, through practical arguments, then this core problem is going to manifest itself somewhere else. The father-in-law is going to look for other ways to control his daughter.

So I’m advocating that the OP confront the core issue, head-on, and not distract the conversation with a bunch of fluff about pre-school waiting lists. But that’s just my opinion, so the OP can take it or leave it.

Pete
 
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Pete2:
Well, you can certainly create 100 different reasons for the wife not to want to move to CA. But this all really has nothing to do with moving to CA. Because even if the OP does move to CA to satisfy the wife, then there is going to be something else the father-in-law wants the couple to do, and then something else he wants them to do… That is a downward spiral. Alternatively, if the OP is able to trick the wife into deciding not to move, through practical arguments, then this core problem is going to manifest itself somewhere else. The father-in-law is going to look for other ways to control his daughter.

So I’m advocating that the OP confront the core issue, head-on, and not distract the conversation with a bunch of fluff about pre-school waiting lists. But that’s just my opinion, so the OP can take it or leave it.

Pete
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I hear ya…

Of course the marriage needs outside professional help.
That’s obvious. But right now she’s under pressure to move to California and isn’t concerned about saving the marriage over that decision.

So what do you propose?
She’s already declined seeing the new priest and the old.
How does he confront the issue head on?
 
I would suggest to your wife that a Catholic Christian marriage is not like a Protestant Christian marriage…if she gets a divorce she will not be free to marry in the True Church again and she does not have any grounds for an annullment - not moving because Daddy demanded he move is not going to fly as far as canon law goes.

I would also suggest to you that her leaving can mean just that - she leaves, and she leaves alone. That means her husband and her daughter remain in the midwest.

This father-in-law, is he also Catholic?

I would also consider going alone to the priest and then inviting him to your home. The fact that she doesn’t want to talk about it doesn’t mean she shouldn’t…and, remember, if you need to say to her, “I absolutely understand that you feel you must leave to go live with your father. We will miss you” in order to shake her up a little, then do. It sounds to me like you have a spoiled brat on your hands.

When my brother’s first wife told him that she just didn’t want to be married anymore, he was devastated - but refused to leave the home and refused to allow her to take his child. She was faced with the realization that wanting to leave a marriage is not a good reason for leaving a marriage.

I would talk to your priest but I would also make darn sure that she cannot leave with your child …

My sister-in-law eventually saw the fallacy of her behavior. Unfortunately it underscored other problems she had - which lead to her death in a drunk driving accident 6 months later.
 
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