marriage problems

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sir_galahad

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I’m wondering if anyone can give me advice on something. I come from a very orthodox Catholic family… our religion is everything to us. My brother has fallen away from the Faith and is engaged to marry a nonpracticing Greek Orthodox girl from a not especially religious family. The wedding threatens to cause a major split in our family. “Mary” wants to get married in her parish and, although we’re not happy about it (especially as Mary has been critical and insulting about our religion in the past), we understand that it’s their big day and they have the final decision. The problem is that my brother’s reluctant to get permission from the Bishop to marry a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic church. In fact, relations between us and him and his fiancee are very strained, especially as they think - with some truth - that we’d prefer him to marry a nice Catholic girl. My pastor explained to me that I can’t attend the wedding if he doesn’t get permission because it won’t be a valid marriage since a Roman Catholic must be married by a Roman Catholic priest unless permission is granted. I have no idea what my parents will do in the end but I certainly don’t intend to attend any wedding not sanctioned by the Church. Has anyone dealth with a similar problem?
 
Yes, someone in my family went through this, and it did cause some tensions. In the end they had a beautiful ceremony in a Greek Orthodox church with both a Greek Orthodox priest and a Roman Catholic priest performing the ceremony. I think we all ended up with a better appreciation for both churches.
 
sir galahad:
The problem is that my brother’s reluctant to get permission from the Bishop to marry a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic church.
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My pastor explained to me that I can’t attend the wedding if he doesn’t get permission because it won’t be a valid marriage since a Roman Catholic must be married by a Roman Catholic priest unless permission is granted.
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Does your brother still consider himself Catholic? Your Pastor’s position on the matter suggests that the Pastor still considers him Catholic.

It’s a common problem in many families, unfortunately. I’m curious about one thing. Has your brother talked to your family’s pastor? You don’ say why he doesn’t want permission. Is it because he doesn’t consider it meaningful or necessary? Or is this priest not an easy person to deal with?

You might consider asking this question in the Eastern Christians forum. Perhaps you’d get some insight there. Matrimony in an Orthodox church is probably treated differently than in a protestant church since the Greek Orthodox do have valid sacraments. However its been my personal observation that Orthodox tend to more anti-Catholic than Catholics are anti-Orthodox.
 
Please see:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=77421

One of the reasons my wife and I got married at WDW: too much family drama.

From someone who has been down the road, as much as the family might be upset or unhappy, you should be happy for them. Do you really want to miss your brother’s wedding?
Mary has been critical and insulting about our religion in the past
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Yeah, I’ve been on both sides myself. I look at it as an opportunity to practice patience, and to pray for that person.
 
If it were me, I would attend my sibling’s wedding, but I would not participate in it.

Not attending is something that will never be forgotten. It will have a huge impact on the family dynamics.

Attending without participating will show your brother and his finacee that you love them and want to be there to show support for their marriage. I’m sure they know that you do not approve and why. You have done your duty.

They may be much more open to your views if you attend and it could eventually lead them “home”.

Malia
 
Yes, my brother still considers himself a Catholic, although he disagrees with many Church teachings and rarely attends Mass (his fiancee is basically the same in regard to her church… for her and her family it’s pretty much an ethnic thing). We live in a different state than my bro so he wouldn’t talk to our pastor… in fact, I don’t currently believe he’s registered in a parish. It’s my pastor’s understanding that even if “Mary” was an Eastern rite Catholic my bro would still have to get a dispensation from the Roman rite form of marriage. My reason for not attending… if it comes down to him not getting permission (and he seems to have a certain level of hostility toward the Church and my bro intimated that he and Mary want to get married in her parish partly to spite us)… is that it would cause public scandal… I’d be supporting him in his flagrant disobedience of the one, true Faith and basically stating by presence that an invalid marriage in a schismatic church is equal to a Catholic marriage. Second, he knows that marrying Mary without the Church’s permission would break my parents’ hearts. I don’t support their “marriage” sans a dispensation because my pastor assures me it will be no marriage at all.
 
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dulcissima:
Yes, someone in my family went through this, and it did cause some tensions. In the end they had a beautiful ceremony in a Greek Orthodox church with both a Greek Orthodox priest and a Roman Catholic priest performing the ceremony. I think we all ended up with a better appreciation for both churches.
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Thats a tricky one:

ß3 It is forbidden to have, either before or after the canonical celebration in accordance with ß1, another religious celebration of the same marriage for the purpose of giving or renewing matrimonial consent. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the catholic assistant and a non-Catholic minister, each performing his own rite, ask for the consent of the parties.
 
This is one of those personal matters where we must weigh the good/bad and come to a decision.

I can see why you would choose not to attend. If I were in your exact situation I would probably do the same. I chose not to attend my friend’s invalid ceremony a couple of years ago…but if it were my sister, different factors would be considered.

I really hope you and your family can come to some sort of peace over this entire issue.

Malia
 
sir galahad:
I’m wondering if anyone can give me advice on something. I come from a very orthodox Catholic family… our religion is everything to us. My brother has fallen away from the Faith and is engaged to marry a nonpracticing Greek Orthodox girl from a not especially religious family. The wedding threatens to cause a major split in our family. “Mary” wants to get married in her parish and, although we’re not happy about it (especially as Mary has been critical and insulting about our religion in the past), we understand that it’s their big day and they have the final decision. The problem is that my brother’s reluctant to get permission from the Bishop to marry a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic church. In fact, relations between us and him and his fiancee are very strained, especially as they think - with some truth - that we’d prefer him to marry a nice Catholic girl. My pastor explained to me that I can’t attend the wedding if he doesn’t get permission because it won’t be a valid marriage since a Roman Catholic must be married by a Roman Catholic priest unless permission is granted. I have no idea what my parents will do in the end but I certainly don’t intend to attend any wedding not sanctioned by the Church. Has anyone dealth with a similar problem?
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Did you know Greek Orthodox is the closet to the Catholics of any religion? I think you should by all means attend the wedding and so should your parents. This is the right thing to do, IMO. Let him worry about whatever repercussions come his way. It’s his choice afterall, not yours.
 
I understand that the Greek Orthodox are very similar to the Catholic Church and that they have a valid priesthood, beautiful churches, and gorgeous liturgies. But they’re not in union with Rome and I have a reliable source telling me the marriage won’t be valid. I don’t want to sound hardnosed. I love my brother a great deal (although right now we’re barely on speaking terms) and it’s especially important for me to keep up a good relationship with him because I don’t intend to get married and a day’s going to come when he and his wife and children are my only really close family. But I’m unsure how to balance my obligations to the Church and my obligations to my bro. Re the joint Orthodox/Catholic ceremony: I was on the Greek Orthodox webpage a few weeks ago. The non-Orthodox clergyman doesn’t take part in the ceremony… he’s just given a prominent place in the sanctuary as an honored guest and then allowed to give the couple his benedicition after the ceremony. I think that’s what they said, anyway.
 
I had a similar problem in my family. I very much agonized about it. I encouraged my family member to obtain the proper dispensations. But this family member had a million excuses for marrying a non-Christian before a justice of the peace. (There were no impediments such as prior divorces–just an unwillingness to submit to the authority of the Church hierarchy!)

My priest at the time counseled me and my family to attend because it wasn’t worth the division in the family if we didn’t go. Everyone knew my deep disappointment that the wedding was not blessed by the Catholic Church (nor has it been after the fact despite assurances four years ago that it would be). This family member receives Communion despite not being a practicing Catholic. The only “blessing” from the unpleasantness is that some of my siblings have gradually come around to a more orthodox view of the Church and our faith.

I didn’t agree with my priest at the time, but I reluctantly followed his advice. And I am glad I did. It would have been very, very divisive if I and my immediate family had not attended. (I prominently wore a gold cross at the wedding with my wedding finery as my little protest. I know it was noticed!)

I would counsel you and your parents to make your deep disappointment clearly known, politely decline to take part in the ceremony, but do attend to show support. Make it clear that you are praying that your brother will get his marriage blessed through the proper Catholic channels. Offer to have a family party to honor them when they do get it blessed.
 
The marriage would be valid, but illicit. For example, in case they go though with this and later divorce, he will need a full formal case annulment, not a quickie “lack of form” annulment.
Canon 1127 §1 The provisions of can. 1108 are to be observed in regard to the form to be used in a mixed marriage. If, however, the catholic party contracts marriage with a non-catholic party of oriental rite, the canonical form of celebration is to be observed for lawfulness only; for validity, however, the intervention of a sacred minister is required, while observing the other requirements of law.
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His marriage…His business.
Attend because you love him. Period
~ Kathy ~
 
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Katie1723:
His marriage…His business.
Attend because you love him. Period

~ Kathy ~
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Kathy–That is secular advice. This is a Catholic forum and we should try to provide Catholic advice if we respond. Perhaps your opinion is grounded in our Catholic faith–in which case, it would be helpful to provide your basis for your advice.
 
La Chiara:
Kathy–That is secular advice. This is a Catholic forum and we should try to provide Catholic advice if we respond. Perhaps your opinion is grounded in our Catholic faith–in which case, it would be helpful to provide your basis for your advice.
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I understand that this is a catholic forum. However, I am still entitled to give secular advice, as we are all entitled to our own opinions. And as to the basis of my advice…John 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

All I am saying is that there are 3 people in a marriage…Man, woman and God. No one else. And I stand by “his marriage…his business”
~ Kathy ~
 
My Opinion: of all the different ways people get “married” today… he’s not marrying someone of the same sex… he’s not marrying someone whom he left his first wife for… he’s not running off & getting married in Vegas… He’s marrying in the Greek Orthodox Church by a valid Priest. Close enough for me… especially considering it’s your brother. Go… support him, & pray for him & his wife.
 
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