Married/Non-Married Sexual Relations

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DeepeningFaith

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I have 2 friends that are currently engaged. They actually go to a Catholic university. They say that they have been taught, and therefore believe that a couple is not permitted to have intercourse before marriage, but everything else is ok. They are saying that it is all about the context. Basically, they believe that mutual masturbation is permitted, as is oral sex, to completion. They even say that spilling the man’s seed is fine, so long that it is in a proper context. What worries me most is that the female is going to be a Campus Minister eventually. They will listen to the Church if they are given something approved by the Vatican, etc.

So, I need Church documents about this. All and every one. I’d prefer not to have a bunch of personal opinions and interpretations, but the documents themselves. Quoting the appropriate part and giving me the title and a link is greatly appreciated. I guess, I am basically asking for this thread to be a resource thread, rather than discussion.

Thanks!
 
Your friends clearly have no idea what they’re talking about and are just looking to justify their own actions.

This is about as cut and died as you can get:

va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

My personal note re: 2352… notice how there is no reference simply to self. Masturbation is NOT just self-stimulation, it can also be stimulation by another party to orgasm. And that’s not my personal opinion, that’s a dictionary definition.

There’s no “context” to be had. Surely engaged couples do not cause scandal when they show signs of physical affection like somewhat passionate kissing and spending a lot of time alone together, but there’s no context that gives credence to the idea that “everything except genital to genital contact is OK.” That’s the equivalent of someone saying “oh I just had oral sex, so I’m still a virgin” or even women accepting anal sex as a to keep their virginity intact which we all know is an extremely ridiculous form of rationalization.
 
DeepeningFaith said:
I have 2 friends that are currently engaged. They actually go to a Catholic university. They say that they have been taught, and therefore believe that a couple is not permitted to have intercourse before marriage, but everything else is ok. They are saying that it is all about the context. Basically, they believe that mutual masturbation is permitted, as is oral sex, to completion. They even say that spilling the man’s seed is fine, so long that it is in a proper context. What worries me most is that the female is going to be a Campus Minister eventually. They will listen to the Church if they are given something approved by the Vatican, etc.

So, I need Church documents about this. All and every one. I’d prefer not to have a bunch of personal opinions and interpretations, but the documents themselves. Quoting the appropriate part and giving me the title and a link is greatly appreciated. I guess, I am basically asking for this thread to be a resource thread, rather than discussion.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Hummm big problem…the Catechism will be of help 🙂

These are all grave matters for mortal sins…period. And one does not need to 'go to completion" in order for it to be a mortal sin from the start! (with full knowledge and complete consent of course)

No context will permit the intentionally “spilling of the seed” even in marriage!

(and even in marriage …it is not “anything goes!”)
 
I can understand how 2350 and 2353 could be interpretted as only talking about intercourse. I know these people well enough that the way they will interpret 2352 is that it is only speaking of masturbation and not other acts. They will say that oral sex is still fine then. Thanks for the Catechism, but does anyone have something from a Pope? The early Christians? Saints?
 
Persona Humana (see here)

For example:

Today there are many who vindicate the right to sexual union before marriage, at least in those cases where a firm intention to marry and an affection which is already in some way conjugal in the psychology of the subjects require this completion, which they judge to be connatural. This is especially the case when the celebration of the marriage is impeded by circumstances or when this intimate relationship seems necessary in order for love to be preserved.

This opinion is contrary to Christian doctrine, which states that every genital act must be within the framework of marriage.
 
So let me get this straight, this couple would argue then that they are not allowed to touch the others genitals with their hands, but if they do so only with their mouths, that’s OK. I don’t think you need writings at your disposal, just common sense and logic. Ask them to seriously defend that kind of mental tracking. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever; kissing is more passionate and intimate than holding hands, right? Wouldn’t it then follow that oral sex is more intimate than manual stimulation?

So the Church forbids the less intimate form of sexual touching, but the more intimate form is licit for unmarried individuals. That’s basically their argument.

That’s just a stroke of pure brilliance.
 
Encourage them to move beyond mere adherence to legal standards and the resulting endless search for loopholes to a comprehension of WHY the teaching exists in the first place.

Such people seem to see God as an arbitrary rule-maker angrily watching to see if any dare defy Him. That’s not remotely catholic.

Every single commandment and teaching of the Church is based on the reality that sin is destructive, and damages a person’s ability to give and receive genuine love.

Fornication is wrong because it is a physical LIE. God created sexual union to be a physical manifestation of the total committment and union of the two people. That union is so permanent that God honors it from time to time with the gift of new life, new life that takes DECADES to mature and become independent. When a couple makes that statement with their bodies before they’ve actually made the committment to each other, they lie. It subtly damages the way that sexual union will be even AFTER they actually are married. Ask me how I know, … no don’t. :o

For a source on the above, if she is going into campus ministry, she SHOULD be able to handle “Love & Responsibility” by a fellow later named John Paul II.

For a translation of those concepts from theological English (VERY dense reading!) into American street talk, try “Good News About Sex & Marriage” by Christopher West.
 
You can call the Catholic Answers Apologist line…they can give you info as well…
 
The rationalization and justification for trying to get around sin that some Christians try…is fascinating to me.

I guess what baffles me is that you either subscribe to the teachings or you don’t. Why break the rules and pretend everything is Ok, what’s the point?

Wouldn’t it be better to be honest with oneself and admit that you can’t subscribe to the teachings of your faith and walk away?

Surely they’re well aware that the Church and God doesn’t condone their activities?
 
The_Bucket said:
So let me get this straight, this couple would argue then that they are not allowed to touch the others genitals with their hands, but if they do so only with their mouths, that’s OK. I don’t think you need writings at your disposal, just common sense and logic. Ask them to seriously defend that kind of mental tracking. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever; kissing is more passionate and intimate than holding hands, right? Wouldn’t it then follow that oral sex is more intimate than manual stimulation?

So the Church forbids the less intimate form of sexual touching, but the more intimate form is licit for unmarried individuals. That’s basically their argument.

That’s just a stroke of pure brilliance.
Click to expand...
I genuinely like the way you’ve de-constructed their rationalization.

I have to say that I have a lot of respect for Catholics who make a sincere effort to follow all the teachings of the Church. Not just the ones that are convenient for them.
 
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