Martin Luther and the Reformation

[kattrocks]

Are there biblical reasons against the actions of Martin Luther and the Reformation?

We can think of many reasons of why he was incorrect in what he did, but can we find any evidence in the bible?

I once read that Luther chose the unbiblical way of fixing the problems he saw in the Church. What would the biblical reasons be?

 

[gladtobe]

I suggest that you rent the DVD movie “Luther”. This will give you a general idea of the corruption in the Catholic Church in his time. The main issue with Luther was paying for indulgences. The church at that time wanted to build a huge basilica, but they needed money to do so. So the present day Pope came up with the idea to get the masses of people to give money for a paper of indulgence that would guarantee them or their relatives release from purgatory.

                                  Luther was appalled by this outright money making fraud. The saying "a coin in the coffer, causes another soul from purgatory to spring." Pope Leo was taking in the money . So Luther protested by writing on paper his objections and nailed them to the abbots door. 

                                   Because Luther was well liked by the people and the people realized they were being fleeced by the the church, they rallied around Luther, especially in Germany. Luther then continued to speak out boldly against the Pope and called him Antichrist and fostered the idea that salvation was chiefly by faith alone in the works that Christ accomplished for us, rather than in performing the works that the church required.Thus the reformation sprang up quickly. 

                                   But Luther unwittingly created his own Frankenstein monster. Which became his undoing. Luther merely wanted to reform the corruption of the Roman church in his day and not start a brand new religion. But others picked up his banner and did start their own movements  and thus Protestantism was born. Zwingli and Calvin were at the forefront. 

                                    Few people know Luther was a monk and brilliant. He held a doctorate in theology and was an avid student of St Augustine. Luther also was in a way strange. He was not one person but one man with split personalities. He would often be talking to himself and scolding himself. Also he was a firm believer that the end of the world was soon to come. The Pope was the Antichrist and Christ was soon to return and the millennium would come to a close. Despite Luther's brilliance he had a dark side which was spooky.

 

[Genesis315]

gladtobe:

I suggest that you rent the DVD movie “Luther”. This will give you a general idea of the corruption in the Catholic Church in his time. The main issue with Luther was paying for indulgences. The church at that time wanted to build a huge basilica, but they needed money to do so. So the present day Pope came up with the idea to get the masses of people to give money for a paper of indulgence that would guarantee them or their relatives release from purgatory.

Luther was appalled by this outright money making fraud. The saying “a coin in the coffer, causes another soul from purgatory to spring.” Pope Leo was taking in the money . So Luther protested by writing on paper his objections and nailed them to the abbots door.

Because Luther was well liked by the people and the people realized they were being fleeced by the the church, they rallied around Luther, especially in Germany. Luther then continued to speak out boldly against the Pope and called him Antichrist and fostered the idea that salvation was chiefly by faith alone in the works that Christ accomplished for us, rather than in performing the works that the church required.Thus the reformation sprang up quickly.

But Luther unwittingly created his own Frankenstein monster. Which became his undoing. Luther merely wanted to reform the corruption of the Roman church in his day and not start a brand new religion. But others picked up his banner and did start their own movements and thus Protestantism was born. Zwingli and Calvin were at the forefront.

Few people know Luther was a monk and brilliant. He held a doctorate in theology and was an avid student of St Augustine. Luther also was in a way strange. He was not one person but one man with split personalities. He would often be talking to himself and scolding himself. Also he was a firm believer that the end of the world was soon to come. The Pope was the Antichrist and Christ was soon to return and the millennium would come to a close. Despite Luther’s brilliance he had a dark side which was spooky.

I think Luther had a pretty rough childhood if I’m not mistaken, like his parents were pretty abusive. Is this correct? I think that might be why he ran away and became a monk, but I can’t remember.

 

[gladtobe]

No Luther loved the Catholic church when he was young and very naive to all that the church taught at that time. It was through a progression of his serving in the church that he saw inner corruption and his feelings rapidly changed.

 

[marineboy]

people as an anti semetic nut job–just to be blunt–not o nention a hereticwho did terrible harm to Christinaity and started one of the worse heresies ever-- where is he wrong from the Bible?? Are you kidding?? his whole notion of jUtification by faith alone was made up?? for 1500 years no Christian believe that faith alone justified-- dont praise this heretic please—

 

[Curious]

We can think of many reasons of why he was incorrect in what he did, but can we find any evidence in the bible?

This is a rushed and vague reponse, because I’m pressed for time, so I apologize ahead of time. I read somewhere that by going against the church was analogous to the ‘rebellion of Korah’ mentioned in the Bible. When I have time later I’ll look up the verses. But in short, the Korah rebelled against established leaders or something.

Bleh…that was horrible. I’ll try to remember to come back and do a better job…but maybe it will give you something to look up…or something.

My brain is mush. Back to stupid studying for exams. :banghead:

 

[gladtobe]

Marineboy

               Yep, Luther was indeed anti semitic. But only because he felt the people of Israel wanted to put our Lord to death. So he wrote off the Jews as the bad guys, with no possible future restoration. But despite Luther's failings he was no "nut job" as you call him, but a brilliant Augustian monk who held a doctorate degree.

Actually, Luther cannot be blamed for all this mess in Christendom. He only started the fire.
Rome was also guilty of extorting money from the people for indulgences promised on paper that was no better than paper you wrap fish in.Also Calvin and Zwingli really started the reformation rolling. So don't be to hard on one of your own, OK?

 

[jphilapy]

gladtobe:

Marineboy

Yep, Luther was indeed anti semitic. But only because he felt the people of Israel wanted to put our Lord to death. So he wrote off the Jews as the bad guys, with no possible future restoration. But despite Luther’s failings he was no “nut job” as you call him, but a brilliant Augustian monk who held a doctorate degree.
Actually, Luther cannot be blamed for all this mess in Christendom. He only started the fire.

Rome was also guilty of extorting money from the people for indulgences promised on paper that was no better than paper you wrap fish in.Also Calvin and Zwingli really started the reformation rolling. So don’t be to hard on one of your own, OK?

Actually it isn’t even accurate to say he started the fire. Luther in sincerity posted his 95 theisis for discussion which was a perfectly normal thing to do in his day. From there others started the fire. According to the movie someone else saw the 95 theisis and published it in the language of the people.

Luther had a sincere desire to see Jesus glorified and in so doing he was completely shocked that he would be repreminded for doing what was right.

Marineboy what heresy are you referring to?

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

Curious:

This is a rushed and vague reponse, because I’m pressed for time, so I apologize ahead of time. I read somewhere that by going against the church was analogous to the ‘rebellion of Korah’ mentioned in the Bible. When I have time later I’ll look up the verses. But in short, the Korah rebelled against established leaders or something.

Bleh…that was horrible. I’ll try to remember to come back and do a better job…but maybe it will give you something to look up…or something.

My brain is mush. Back to stupid studying for exams. :banghead:

Hi Curious,

One thing to consider is that the early christians did go against established leadership. They went against the jewish leadership as well as the roman leadership. Granted they always tried to obey but that obedience stopped when obeying man conflicted with obeying God. Just as the apostles said when they were commanded to stop preaching, ‘who should we obey? Man or God?’

The rebellion of korah was not just a rebellion against man but it was a rebellion against God. Moses was not teaching them to do anything immoral or in contradiction to God’s commands.

In otherwords we are not bound to obey an institution, we are only bound to obey God. If what man commands us contridicts what God commands us then we are not obligated to obey man. Also we are obligated to point out sin like good watchmen.

If Martin Luther was being used by God to point out sin, then we would in fact be guilty of the rebellion of Korah if we opposed the truth.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

marineboy:

people as an anti semetic nut job–just to be blunt–not o nention a hereticwho did terrible harm to Christinaity and started one of the worse heresies ever-- where is he wrong from the Bible?? Are you kidding?? his whole notion of jUtification by faith alone was made up?? for 1500 years no Christian believe that faith alone justified-- dont praise this heretic please—

sorry marineboy I didn’t realize you stated what you called heresy in your post. Ok so Martin Luther was Augustinian, didn’t Augustine teach justification by faith? It seems that the argument Paligius had against Augustine is the same that catholics have against Luther saying that he (either one) believes works are not part of salvation. BTW Luther didn’t teach that a believer could live in sin. He just taught that the justification takes places at faith and not when one is infused with the ability to be righteous. excuse my ignorance on some of this.

Also many catholics throughout the RCC’s history were anti-semetic.

Luther just carrying on the tradition that is all. Of course I disagree with it.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

marineboy:

people as an anti semetic nut job–just to be blunt–not o nention a hereticwho did terrible harm to Christinaity and started one of the worse heresies ever-- where is he wrong from the Bible?? Are you kidding?? his whole notion of jUtification by faith alone was made up?? for 1500 years no Christian believe that faith alone justified-- dont praise this heretic please—

sorry marineboy I didn’t realize you stated what you called heresy in your post. Ok so Martin Luther was Augustinian, didn’t Augustine teach justification by faith? It seems that the argument Palegius had against Augustine is the same that catholics have against Luther saying that he (either one) believes works are not part of salvation. BTW Luther didn’t teach that a believer could live in sin. He just taught that the justification takes places at faith and not when one is infused with the ability to be righteous. excuse my ignorance on some of this.

Also many catholics throughout the RCC’s history were anti-semetic.

Luther just carrying on the tradition that is all. Of course I disagree with it.

Jeff

 

[AsStAnselmPrays]

gladtobe:

…The saying “a coin in the coffer, causes another soul from purgatory to spring.”

I thought it was:

“When a coin in the coffer rings, another soul from purgatory springs.” A somewhat misleading statement by Yohan Tetzel…

 

[JimO]

As far as biblical evidence against any split from the Church (there was only one Church at the time), neither Jesus nor the Apostles made any provision whatsoever for separating, as a body of Christians, from the Church. They left clear instructions on what to do with individuals who commit open sin and refuse to repent, but that was a case where the offenders were cast out from the Church, not the other way around, which is what the Reformation did.

Furthermore, a division of the Church goes explicitly against the prayer of unity that Jesus prayed - that we would be one as He and the Father are One. The way that verse is phrased is significant. Think about how the Father and Son are “One”. Even the most ecumenical of people could not possibly compare the Oneness of the Father and Son with any broad unity among Christians. In fact, even closely related Protestant denominations are not unified in the way that Christ intended.

I say again, Christ made no provision whatsoever for “denominations” in Christianity. On the contrary, He intended for us to work out our differences under one roof.

 

[MariaG]

posted by kattrocksAre there biblical reasons against the actions of Martin Luther and the Reformation?

We can think of many reasons of why he was incorrect in what he did, but can we find any evidence in the bible?

I once read that Luther chose the unbiblical way of fixing the problems he saw in the Church. What would the biblical reasons be?

Biblical reasons? Yes. Forgive me for not citing exactly where, but I am sure you will recogniz them.

The Church must be One.

Depart from those who cause discenssion.

These two themes are repeated over and over in the New Testament. I will later look up exact references, if you wish.

But is that enough “biblical reasons” for Luther being wrong?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[1samuel]

Just so you all know, the Vatican movie review said the movie was severly “flawed”. It gave the impression that luther was less to blame than he really was. espesially when all those people were killed for rioting. I wanted to see it, but if it isn’t accurate, why bother.

 

[marineboy]

I could easily prove that Luther was a nutjob–Nut jobs can be itelligent–he was overscrupulous and had severe mental problems --if u read "Hear I stand "by bainton u will see—he was a heretic—he was excomunicated and he taught JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE—THAT JUSTIFICATION WAS MERELY IMPUTED RIGHTEOPUSNESS—NOT INFUSED- AS THE TRUE TEACHING IS—SO YA HE WS A HERETIC AND A NUT JOB----AND IF U WANT TO DEBATE THIS FURTHER I WILL GO BACK AND GET THE QUOTES FORM THE BOOK THAT SHOWS HE IS A WACKO—CATHOLICS WAK UP STOP DEFENDING LUTHER !!! AND STOP DEFENDING THE HERSEY THAT CAME FOM HIM PROTESTANISM

 

[1samuel]

From the 33 Canons of the Counsil of Trent;

#1 If anyone says that man can be justified by before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers, or through the teachings of the law, without dvine grace from Jesus Christ, let him be an anathema.

#2 if anyone says that divine grace through Jesus Christ is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be an anathema.

#9 If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be an anathema.

#12 If anyone says justifying faith is nothing else than confidence
in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be an anathema.

These are a few of the 33 Canons that the cousil issued in responce to the thesis. Does that help you folks? I dont want to butt in, I just happen to have Luthers bio on the table next to me, and thought it might help.

 

[Malachi4U]

gladtobe:

I suggest that you rent the DVD movie “Luther”. This will give you a general idea of the corruption in the Catholic Church in his time…

There are two “LUTHER” movies to rent. The 2004 Luther movie is pure Lutheran propaganda. Imagine if the NAZI’s made a movie about Hitler but failed to mention the fact he statrted a war. Imagine they failed to even mention the jewish issue at all. This is how bias the newer movie is.

The 1974 movie “LUTHER” with Stacey Keach is more balanced. It was written by a protestant as a play and made into a movie. It doesn’t make Luther out to be a Saint nor does it fully show the position of Christs Church (i.e. the “Roman” rite of the Catholic Church anyway). Luther was much more of a bottom feeding scoundral then what the movie shows and the Catholic Church was perfect and sinless though some members in it were sinners too.

Rent both movies and compare them. If you only rent one then rent the 1973 version as it is much more balanced.

For a good book on Luther try reading “The facts about Luther.” It is from a Catholic perspective and puts the Heritic in his place.

Say a prayer for Luther and all those he decieved and led astray. They need our prayers. Forgive him and pray for him, as Christians we should do that for them.

 

[mtr01]

Scriptural admonitions against schism:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 12:25 That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

Eph 4:3

Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Eph 4:13

Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.
Eph 4:15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity.

 

[gladtobe]

Marineboy
Let me ask you this.When you were in boot and you swatted a mosquito, did gunny have you bury it six foot deep and then unbury it, to find out what sex it was. That was part of our normal boot training. Just wondered if you did. No, Luther was not a nut job.