Martin Luther

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Hey everybody! I have engaged a “born again Christian” in a rather heated debate about the Catholic Faith. However, he was astonished when I informed him that Martin Luther dropped 7 books out of the Bible and said that that is false. “You have no proof of that, Catholics probably just added those 7 books.” How should I even start? Any tips or websites or concrete proof of this to show him that YES M.L. did drop the books. Thank you!
 
Send him here. This is a digital view to the British Library’s two copies of the Gutenberg bible. This bible dates to somewhere around 1450, 50ish years before the reformation. Most notably, this bible contains the Duetros. This is compelling proof that those books were there before Luther entered the scene.

Hope this helps!
 
Hey everybody! I have engaged a “born again Christian” in a rather heated debate about the Catholic Faith. However, he was astonished when I informed him that Martin Luther dropped 7 books out of the Bible and said that that is false. “You have no proof of that, Catholics probably just added those 7 books.” How should I even start? Any tips or websites or concrete proof of this to show him that YES M.L. did drop the books. Thank you!
Dear Catholic friends:

Your axiom for the day should be that if want to gain an appreciation for the true differences and similarities between Martin Luther and anyone or anything, you should not ask a “born again Christian.” That poor fellow is thoroughly unprepared to appreciate Luther, as are too many modern Lutherans, I hasten to add. Surely this is not the forum for debating the merits of the thought and theology of Luther, or his life and complicated times, and I respect the fact that I am a mere guest here among you. However, I would very much be interested in cordially and respectfully taking on the mistaken notion that Luther dropped any books from the Bible. First, please know that you cannot get at what a Lutheran Bible looks like by looking at the bible of the average modern American Lutheran, who has been all too Protestantized. Luther’s Bible has everything that yours does. We can discuss this topic in more detail, of course, but I must get to work. But perhaps later tonight I would be open to further conversation with you on the matter.

Latif
 
Dear Catholic friends:

Your axiom for the day should be that if want to gain an appreciation for the true differences and similarities between Martin Luther and anyone or anything, you should not ask a “born again Christian.” That poor fellow is thoroughly unprepared to appreciate Luther, as are too many modern Lutherans, I hasten to add. Surely this is not the forum for debating the merits of the thought and theology of Luther, or his life and complicated times, and I respect the fact that I am a mere guest here among you. However, I would very much be interested in cordially and respectfully taking on the mistaken notion that Luther dropped any books from the Bible. First, please know that you cannot get at what a Lutheran Bible looks like by looking at the bible of the average modern American Lutheran, who has been all too Protestantized. Luther’s Bible has everything that yours does. We can discuss this topic in more detail, of course, but I must get to work. But perhaps later tonight I would be open to further conversation with you on the matter.

Latif
I would love to discuss this. Where are the 7 books that the Catholics have but are not present in the Lutheran Bible? If Luther didn’t get rid of them, then who did? Where did they go?

A.D and fermat thank you SO much!! Both sites are VERY helpful and I will be very interested on what my friend has to say on those!
 
Dear Catholic friends:

Your axiom for the day should be that if want to gain an appreciation for the true differences and similarities between Martin Luther and anyone or anything, you should not ask a “born again Christian.” That poor fellow is thoroughly unprepared to appreciate Luther, as are too many modern Lutherans, I hasten to add. Surely this is not the forum for debating the merits of the thought and theology of Luther, or his life and complicated times, and I respect the fact that I am a mere guest here among you. However, I would very much be interested in cordially and respectfully taking on the mistaken notion that Luther dropped any books from the Bible. First, please know that you cannot get at what a Lutheran Bible looks like by looking at the bible of the average modern American Lutheran, who has been all too Protestantized. Luther’s Bible has everything that yours does. We can discuss this topic in more detail, of course, but I must get to work. But perhaps later tonight I would be open to further conversation with you on the matter.

Latif
The primary reason that Luther gets the blame for those seven books not being there is because he ‘demoted’ them from scripture to non-scripture. While Luther *did *include those books in the physical document that held the other canonical books, he did not give them pride of place as the inspired Word of God. That change led later version of the bible to exclude them all together.
 
Dear Catholic friends:

Your axiom for the day should be that if want to gain an appreciation for the true differences and similarities between Martin Luther and anyone or anything, you should not ask a “born again Christian.” That poor fellow is thoroughly unprepared to appreciate Luther, as are too many modern Lutherans, I hasten to add. Surely this is not the forum for debating the merits of the thought and theology of Luther, or his life and complicated times, and I respect the fact that I am a mere guest here among you. However, I would very much be interested in cordially and respectfully taking on the mistaken notion that Luther dropped any books from the Bible. First, please know that you cannot get at what a Lutheran Bible looks like by looking at the bible of the average modern American Lutheran, who has been all too Protestantized. Luther’s Bible has everything that yours does. We can discuss this topic in more detail, of course, but I must get to work. But perhaps later tonight I would be open to further conversation with you on the matter.

Latif
I too am curious, why do most Protestant bibles not include the entire canon set down by the Council of Rome in 382? I am curious also to know on whose authority Luther decided that the Deuterocanonicals were “books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.” If Luther could say that, why then can’t I decree that, say, Psalms or Jeremiah are not “fit” to be considered Holy Scripture, and cut their pages right out of my Bible?
 
It’s obvious Luther had an agenda, which was to topple the authority establishment of Rome.

If you go to the encyclopedia tab above and find the article on Luther, you will find that he was a very emotionally disturbed person – educated but disturbed. He established the fundamentals of protestantism, to protest anything taught by the Catholic Church.

He got a lot of traction by getting German nobles to sever the control of Rome over appointment of bishops in Germany (which was unpopular) and to slow the transfer of wealth to Rome. Scientific skepticism was also growing in Europe, to further detract from the control of Rome.

It seems that he was emotionally imploding his whole life, over the strict upbringing he had, such as growing up in a household where it is said that he got more than a dozen beatings in a single day.

His ideas were popular with a lot of folk who liked to “do religion” their way. I believe that he was the chief proponent of “sola scriptura” (which has been written about in these forums, ad nauseam).

His success was guaranteed by a pope who declined to take him seriously.
 
Hey everybody! I have engaged a “born again Christian” in a rather heated debate about the Catholic Faith. However, he was astonished when I informed him that Martin Luther dropped 7 books out of the Bible and said that that is false. “You have no proof of that, Catholics probably just added those 7 books.” How should I even start? Any tips or websites or concrete proof of this to show him that YES M.L. did drop the books. Thank you!
Martin Luther only accepted those books of the Hebrew Bible that the Hebrews accepted into their canon. There are several church fathers who didn’t include the Apocrypha as part of the Biblical canon. St. Athanasius is one example, “There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews.” St. Jerome is another example. Martin Luther did believe that the Apocrypha, while not authoritative as sacred Scripture, is useful for edification.

Before anyone denounces Luther as a vile heretic, please read this:
In November 1999, the Lutheran World Federation and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” that said, “By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.”[1]
On July 18, 2006, delegates to the World Methodist Conference voted unanimously to adopt the declaration. The Methodists’ resolution said the 1999 agreement “expresses a far-reaching consensus in regard to the theological controversy which was a major cause of the split in Western churches in the 16th century” over salvation by grace alone or by grace and good works. Many conservative Protestant and Catholic groups still believe the differences between their views remain substantial, however.[2]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia#Recent_activity
 
Ah but the Jews never had a definite Canon of Scripture in the time before Christ.
 
Well I just had a short discussion with him and he said, “the jews only use and believe the 39 books that i use, and only preach from those. why would they not include the other 7 if they were that important?” and he also gave me this site: infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html
what to do…any help would be deeply appreciated 😉 😃
Also do you know of any non-Catholic sites which say that Luther disagreed with some of the books. Not that he necessarily cast them out completely, but that he disagreed with them and moved them to the back? You see, he wants non-Catholic proof that Luther disagreed with some of the Books of the Bible. And even Protestants agree to that right?
 
Well I just had a short discussion with him and he said, “the jews only use and believe the 39 books that i use, and only preach from those. why would they not include the other 7 if they were that important?” and he also gave me this site: infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html
what to do…any help would be deeply appreciated 😉 😃
Also do you know of any non-Catholic sites which say that Luther disagreed with some of the books. Not that he necessarily cast them out completely, but that he disagreed with them and moved them to the back? You see, he wants non-Catholic proof that Luther disagreed with some of the Books of the Bible. And even Protestants agree to that right?
Go over the beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com and look over on the right had side to find several articles which discuss Luther’s opinion of the canon.
 
Well I just had a short discussion with him and he said, “the jews only use and believe the 39 books that i use, and only preach from those. why would they not include the other 7 if they were that important?” and he also gave me this site: infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html
what to do…any help would be deeply appreciated 😉 😃
Also do you know of any non-Catholic sites which say that Luther disagreed with some of the books. Not that he necessarily cast them out completely, but that he disagreed with them and moved them to the back? You see, he wants non-Catholic proof that Luther disagreed with some of the Books of the Bible. And even Protestants agree to that right?
Well the most obvious point would be “the Jews don’t use the 27 books of the New Testament either, why should a Christian let them determine what belongs in the Christian Bible?” You might or might not be able to engage him in a conversation about how we know which of the dozens of gospels, acts, epistles and apocalypses that were written in the first couple of centuries of the Church are Inspired Word of God. . . .

The Christian Classic Ethereal Library, which is hosted by Calvin College (not a Catholic site by any stretch of the imagination) includes many writings of the early Church, including a number of writers who addressed the question of the canon. Here’s a link to Augustine, for example. (I’m not sure how he’ll feel about Augustine - most evangelicals tend to think that there is nothing worth reading between the death of the Apostle John and Luther, but it does show that the early Church used the longer canon.) CCEL also has a short page explaining the “apocrypha” which includes an essay from the early 19th century on the topic (the essay repeats the assertion that there are no New Testament quotations of the “disputed” books, which is debatable and also ignores the fact that there are non-disputed books that aren’t quoted either. . . .)

As for non-Catholic sites that talk about Luther’s/Protestantism’s shortening of the canon, he could start with wikipedia. Or any standard secular encyclopedia. But here’s a commentary from a man who is a professor at Indiana Weslyan. He wasn’t writing ABOUT the canon in the piece, he just uses it as an example, but it’s pretty matter-of-fact. Also notes that Luther also attempted to demote several NT books he objected to.

The trouble with this kind of “discussion,” unfortunately, is that the person raising the objections is 1) generally passionately convinced that the Catholic Church is apostate, and will believe anything bad anyone says about it and reject anything that seems to suggest that the Church might not be as bad as they think, and 2) generally quite ignorant of any church history from the first 1000-1500 years of the Christian faith. They also tend to repeat the same arguments over and over, frequently just cutting-and-pasting them from various anti-catholic books and websites. So you’ve very possibly begun a game of whack-a-mole that could go on for years, if you have the energy for it.
 
Well I just had a short discussion with him and he said,
“the jews only use and believe the 39 books that i use, and only preach from those. why would they not include the other 7 if they were that important?” and he also gave me this site: infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html
what to do…any help would be deeply appreciated 😉 😃
Also do you know of any non-Catholic sites which say that Luther disagreed with some of the books. Not that he necessarily cast them out completely, but that he disagreed with them and moved them to the back? You see, he wants non-Catholic proof that Luther disagreed with some of the Books of the Bible. And even Protestants agree to that right?
The Jews of Christs time did not only have those books, they used the Septuagint which contains the Old Testament as found in Catholic bibles and more importantly the Christians did not only have those books at any time either they always had all the books as contained in the Catholic Bible.

The Jews are not the leaders of Christians, the Jews also say that Christ was not the Messiah does he agree with that also?

The Jews rejected several books contained in the Septuagint AFTER the time of Christ, the Jewish Scriptures today are not completely the same as those used by Christ and the Apostles or by Jews of Christ’s time. Nor is it the same as that used by Christians from the earliest times. The Apostles used the Septuagint not the modern Jewish canon.

Your acquaintance needs to decide whether he is a Jew or a Christian, whether he follows Christ and the Apostles or the Rabbis.

According to Michael Barber the Jews actually striped those books from the Canon in reaction to Christianity.

“one thing that is clear about the canonical process used by the rabbis is that it was motivated in part by an anti-Christian bias.”

Why have the Jewish Canon which was not decided upon by the Rabbis until after Christ’s resurrection with the Christian New Testament which was put together by the Catholic Chruch added on when you can have the whole Christian Bible, which is the Septuagint version of Old Testament as used by the Apostles combined with the New Testament written by the Apostles which was codified by the Catholic Chruch at the Council of Rome?

You might find this useful

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Jewish_Bible_canon
 
It’s obvious Luther had an agenda, which was to topple the authority establishment of Rome.

If you go to the encyclopedia tab above and find the article on Luther, you will find that he was a very emotionally disturbed person – educated but disturbed. He established the fundamentals of protestantism, to protest anything taught by the Catholic Church.

He got a lot of traction by getting German nobles to sever the control of Rome over appointment of bishops in Germany (which was unpopular) and to slow the transfer of wealth to Rome. Scientific skepticism was also growing in Europe, to further detract from the control of Rome.

It seems that he was emotionally imploding his whole life, over the strict upbringing he had, such as growing up in a household where it is said that he got more than a dozen beatings in a single day.

His ideas were popular with a lot of folk who liked to “do religion” their way. I believe that he was the chief proponent of “sola scriptura” (which has been written about in these forums, ad nauseam).

His success was guaranteed by a pope who declined to take him seriously.
Very true. Luther was a victim of child abuse both physically as well as mentally/psychologically. Luther’s own writings confirm this. His childhood experiences with parental authority would shape his later ideas on all authority.
 
It’s obvious Luther had an agenda, which was to topple the authority establishment of Rome.

If you go to the encyclopedia tab above and find the article on Luther, you will find that he was a very emotionally disturbed person – educated but disturbed. He established the fundamentals of protestantism, to protest anything taught by the Catholic Church.

He got a lot of traction by getting German nobles to sever the control of Rome over appointment of bishops in Germany (which was unpopular) and to slow the transfer of wealth to Rome. Scientific skepticism was also growing in Europe, to further detract from the control of Rome.

It seems that he was emotionally imploding his whole life, over the strict upbringing he had, such as growing up in a household where it is said that he got more than a dozen beatings in a single day.

His ideas were popular with a lot of folk who liked to “do religion” their way. I believe that he was the chief proponent of “sola scriptura” (which has been written about in these forums, ad nauseam).

His success was guaranteed by a pope who declined to take him seriously.
Dear Crumpy:
(First, aren’t real names used here?) Second, I was hopeful to find reasoned and genuinely Christian discourse taking place here. Among Christians, the Eighth Commandment ought to be so highly valued that it informs how we speak and think of even those long considered by one’s denomination to be a heretic. It is certainly possible that you actually believe what you are writing here against the character of Dr. Luther, and have been misinformed. Right here and now, though, there is a new moment, in which God has placed you and me into each other’s lives, and I am introducing you to what may be a new idea to you. Namely, a lot of what has passed for biography in the case of Luther has been pure and absolute slander, motivated by polemical hatred. The psychological approach to Luther will not lead you to truly understanding him. Nor will the lies that are still taught in some books about his moral life. Real facts are there, ready to meet all of the slander, as can attest the fairest and most honest Luther scholars, of the past and present, and of many denominations, not only Lutheran, but Roman Catholic as well.

My personal suggestion to those interested in learning about Luther is twofold.
  1. Read Luther. Not merely isolated passages quoted in secondary, or tertiary, sources; but actually start reading Luther. Great minds deserve to be read and studied. Great minds also converse with each other; they engage each other, idea for idea, and take part in a Great Conversation. Pope Benedict XVI is such a mind, in my view, and a great example in this regard. He manages to write about Luther without entertaining any of these wild stories. In English, you can begin with the 55 volume American Edition of Luther’s Works. If you read German and Latin, even better, for then you can explore his massive body of work in the original. You will find profound spirituality, gut-busting humor, tender pastoral concern, forceful attacks on the deniers of the Real Presence of our Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament, brilliant christological exegesis, and much more. Of course you will also find things with which you will not agree. I am not trying to convince you to agree with him (though I might try once or twice in person if we knew each other personally).
  2. Read good, scholarly studies of his life, his times, and his theology. There are many, of course, but at the moment let me mention two names, Heiko Obermann, with, eg., his book, Luther: Man Between God and the Devil, and a Catholic Luther scholar, Franz Posset, and his book, Luther’s Catholic Christology, which is an excellent study focussing on Luther’s Johannine lectures of 1527, and illuminating much in terms of both Luther’s thought and medieval influences (such as Saint Bernard of Clairvaux), and also his own sitz im leben.
 
I’m sorry, but my response was too long, so this is the second part. Thanks.

Furthermore, even if the lies were truth, and Luther were guilty of the manifold moral and psychological failings attributed to him by certain writers, even that would not in itself disprove his theology, his arguments, his concerns, his attacks on the blatant abuses of his day.

Regarding the initial question about Luther and the Bible, I must urge first this general point: Luther cannot be blamed for modern Protestantism. It would be most unfair to interpret Luther as a Protestant. His German translation of the Bible contains everything that your Bible contains. Only, the arrangement, and names, of some of the writings are different. In fact, Gary Michuta in his book, Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger, (generally a very good and informative book) is guilty of gross understatement when he says that it is “not entirely true” that “Martin Luther removed the Deuterocanonical books from Scripture” (pp245-246), and he is right when he says that “it is incorrect that Luther removed the Deuterocanon” (246). In fact, the funny thing about Michuta’s title is that Catholic Bibles are not bigger, at least when compared to the Luther Bible, or to the Anglican Bible (ie., the KJV). For the Luther Bible actually includes The Prayer of Manasses, at the end of the OT, which is not in most modern Catholic Bibles, though it is at the end of the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate. And the Anglicans go further with the King James, by including 1 & 2 Esdras, which neither Luther nor Rome includes, though these also are appendicized to the Sixto-Clementine. (And to clarify, when I say 1 & 2 Esdras, in this case I mean what in the Latin tradition is called 3 & 4 Esdras.)

And what I say here is not mere ancient academic curiosity, which soon evolved into full blown Protestant dismissal of the Deuterocanonicals. For the Luther Bible was printed, and read, even in America, eg., in the Missouri Synod, well into the 20th century, until they started doing things in English. And the KJV is still sold and read in its full form, though not by most American Protestant publishers. I own one; got it from Cambridge University Press, and use it every day. Furthermore, you must consider also a church’s liturgical usage. In my church, for example, there are many feasts on which you will hear lessons from the Deutero-Canonicals. I know because I am the one who, as Deacon, often reads them. We read them in the KJV, and occasionally in Latin. One final point for now: Luther quotes, out of context, can easily be pitted against each other. In many places he actually refers to deuterocanonical writings as “scripture,” as do Lutheran theologians after him, such as Martin Chemnitz.
 
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