Mary and childbirth

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Hi Fred,

Mary’s physical integrity while giving birth is a dogma. No speculation needed. How this actually happened is pure speculation and, frankly, futile.

Verbum
 
Mary did have a completely natural birth.

Natural the way it was meant to be in Eden, before Eve and Adam sinned.

We weren’t meant to have to live with pain and suffering at one of the great times of life. In a fallen world, women and men have to suffer. In the way the world was meant to be, it was not so.

I suppose you could also get upset because Adam and Eve got to be friends with the plants and animals in Eden, and because they didn’t have to work hard. But the moral of the story is that we’re right to be a little disappointed with how things are now, not complain about life in a perfect world having been too perfect. Sheesh.

There’s speculation in some theological traditions (kinda useless, because of course God dwells in eternity, so there probably wasn’t a plan B to cover a contingency that didn’t happen) that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, God would have become Man as their child instead of Mary’s. And that in such a case, Eve would have given painless birth, though probably not virgin birth. (The other speculation is that Adam and Eve would have had sex and had their same kids Cain and Abel and Seth in a painless way, with all marital love, sex, and desire unshadowed by the annoyance of concupiscence. But of course it’s a bit late to speculate on that now.)

Either way, Mary’s painless birth is not so much about her being “ooh, so special and not touched by anything ooky”, but about the new Eve getting a moment of getting to live the blissful way God wants all humans to be able to live. She would suffer unimaginably during her life and during Jesus’ Passion, but just not right then. At the Nativity, God treated His mother with the gentle and tender love He wants to show all of us. For all the women and all the human race who have to suffer and die in childbirth and whose pain He knows, He wanted it just once to work out. Suffering would come later; the actual moment of the Nativity was all joy. (And this is why many Nativity pictures show Mary looking remarkably perky for a woman who just gave birth. She isn’t supposed to look exhausted and in pain. At the foot of the Cross will be time enough.)

Mary’s virgin birth is about a lot of different kinds of symbolism; but possibly most of all to show that God could make all things new and keep them new, and that the new Eve represented all women at once, in something of the same way that Jesus was the representative of all Humanity as well as being God.
 
Hi Fred,

Mary’s physical integrity while giving birth is a dogma. No speculation needed. How this actually happened is pure speculation and, frankly, futile.

Verbum
Now the question is… What exactly is physical integrity referring to? I understand that it is taught Mary did not undergo pain… however I am not sure if that also means she didn’t have to undergo the physical changes associated with childbirth.
 
Now the question is… What exactly is physical integrity referring to? I understand that it is taught Mary did not undergo pain… however I am not sure if that also means she didn’t have to undergo the physical changes associated with childbirth.
I have read that physical integrity meant that Mary in no sense “opened,” and that there was no “breaking of water” – no “puerperal flux” from her womb, no mix of gestational fluid, meconium fluid and blood.

I have always disagreed with this concept. It seems to contradict the Church’s own infallibly-chosen Scriptural canon – in other words, the Church’s own teaching IN Scripture.
 
Oh, forgot the painless Scriptural Messianic prophecy, so I’ll post that first.

Isaiah 66:7 - Before she went into labor, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a male child.

First off, I want to emphasize that the Church doesn’t say Mary experienced no physical signs of pregnancy and childbirth. Obviously, her breasts developed, because she nursed the child. Nobody’s saying her pelvis didn’t alter its shape, or that any of the other physical changes of motherhood didn’t occur.

All right, let’s get on with physical integrity.

First of all, no hymen is totally hermetically sealed, even before the time a girl hits puberty and starts having her period. There’s always a tiny gap for fluid to pass through,that every girl is born with; there’s just not much fluid until you’re having a period. Throughout a girl’s life, both before and after puberty, the gap slowly grows outward. Eventually, even without having sex, it’s going to be nothing but gap, often long before middle age. So maintaining a hymen’s physical integrity throughout life would be a sort of miraculous youth thing (which goes along with the Eden theme). Maintaining it during birth might be a matter of somehow going through the gap, or somehow making the hymen vastly more elastic for a few moments and then putting the gap back to its previous size. But we don’t know.

The usual explanation for Jesus’ ability to pass through was John 20:19, when Jesus got into the room where they were gathered without actually opening the doors or breaking them. (This is the part when us geekier Catholics start invoking the book Flatland, about how a three-dimensional person in a two-dimensional world would seem to have miraculous powers of teleportation, when in fact it’s perfectly natural not to be bound to two dimensions. But of course, Jesus didn’t have to do it that way.) Others preferred to compare the whole thing to “sunlight through clear glass”. But of course, nobody really knows the mechanics; we just know what we’ve been taught happened.

There are some fairly robust statements about this in the tradition, most notably the “Protoevangelium of James.” This fictional text is very very early and includes tons of stuff Christians believed in a novelized form, and this doctrine is no exception. It takes a sort of Doubting Thomas approach with the character of the midwife Salome, and is thus very definite in presenting this doctrine. Ahem.

But generally, the early Christians and medievals didn’t want to get quite this explicit about it, because geez, we’re talking about our mom’s private bits here. They believe it, they state it, but they’re not interested in going into details because it gets a bit salacious and creepy. But physical integrity is what’s taught always. (And of course, St. Luke was a physician and there were Jewish and Greek doctoring traditions involving women practitioners, so he or a female colleague might have been in a position to know for sure.)

The verse that the Church Fathers and Scripture scholars have loved to quote down the ages about the virgin birth is this bit from Ezekiel’s vision of the future perfect Temple:

"Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looks toward the east; and it was shut. Then the LORD said to me, “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it. Because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” (Ezekiel 44:1-3) This verse is also referred to, partially, by Mary’s title of “Porta Coeli”, gate of heaven.

There’s also Songs 4:12, which talks about “a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up,” but that’s more a general virginity thing.

I could say more, but I think I’ll stop here. It’s not exactly the kind of topic where you can argue apologetics with people about it, or should, because it’s going to encourage some anti-Mary people to really drag her name in the dirt. But of course, after several generations of this sort of “you don’t have to talk about it because people know” approach, combined with modern discomfort for even the most well-known Biblical signs and miracles, a lot of people today haven’t learned about it and don’t know. I hope I haven’t caused anybody difficulties or been too explicit.

So yeah, it’s not wrong to speculate about miracle logistics, and it can be very interesting. But you shouldn’t work too hard on it.

Here’s a page at EWTN talking about the limits of how far we can be super-definite about the doctrine.

[Here’s a good page](http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/virginity(name removed by moderator)artu.htm) talking about various specific patristic references to this doctrine, papal teachings, etc.
 
Oh, forgot the painless Scriptural Messianic prophecy, so I’ll post that first.

Isaiah 66:7 - Before she went into labor, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a male child.

First off, I want to emphasize that the Church doesn’t say Mary experienced no physical signs of pregnancy and childbirth. Obviously, her breasts developed, because she nursed the child. Nobody’s saying her pelvis didn’t alter its shape, or that any of the other physical changes of motherhood didn’t occur.

All right, let’s get on with physical integrity.

First of all, no hymen is totally hermetically sealed, even before the time a girl hits puberty and starts having her period. There’s always a tiny gap for fluid to pass through,that every girl is born with; there’s just not much fluid until you’re having a period. Throughout a girl’s life, both before and after puberty, the gap slowly grows outward. Eventually, even without having sex, it’s going to be nothing but gap, often long before middle age. So maintaining a hymen’s physical integrity throughout life would be a sort of miraculous youth thing (which goes along with the Eden theme). Maintaining it during birth might be a matter of somehow going through the gap, or somehow making the hymen vastly more elastic for a few moments and then putting the gap back to its previous size. But we don’t know.

The usual explanation for Jesus’ ability to pass through was John 20:19, when Jesus got into the room where they were gathered without actually opening the doors or breaking them. (This is the part when us geekier Catholics start invoking the book Flatland, about how a three-dimensional person in a two-dimensional world would seem to have miraculous powers of teleportation, when in fact it’s perfectly natural not to be bound to two dimensions. But of course, Jesus didn’t have to do it that way.) Others preferred to compare the whole thing to “sunlight through clear glass”. But of course, nobody really knows the mechanics; we just know what we’ve been taught happened.

There are some fairly robust statements about this in the tradition, most notably the “Protoevangelium of James.” This fictional text is very very early and includes tons of stuff Christians believed in a novelized form, and this doctrine is no exception. It takes a sort of Doubting Thomas approach with the character of the midwife Salome, and is thus very definite in presenting this doctrine. Ahem.

But generally, the early Christians and medievals didn’t want to get quite this explicit about it, because geez, we’re talking about our mom’s private bits here. They believe it, they state it, but they’re not interested in going into details because it gets a bit salacious and creepy. But physical integrity is what’s taught always. (And of course, St. Luke was a physician and there were Jewish and Greek doctoring traditions involving women practitioners, so he or a female colleague might have been in a position to know for sure.)

The verse that the Church Fathers and Scripture scholars have loved to quote down the ages about the virgin birth is this bit from Ezekiel’s vision of the future perfect Temple:

"Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looks toward the east; and it was shut. Then the LORD said to me, “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it. Because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” (Ezekiel 44:1-3) This verse is also referred to, partially, by Mary’s title of “Porta Coeli”, gate of heaven.

There’s also Songs 4:12, which talks about “a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up,” but that’s more a general virginity thing.

I could say more, but I think I’ll stop here. It’s not exactly the kind of topic where you can argue apologetics with people about it, or should, because it’s going to encourage some anti-Mary people to really drag her name in the dirt. But of course, after several generations of this sort of “you don’t have to talk about it because people know” approach, combined with modern discomfort for even the most well-known Biblical signs and miracles, a lot of people today haven’t learned about it and don’t know. I hope I haven’t caused anybody difficulties or been too explicit.

So yeah, it’s not wrong to speculate about miracle logistics, and it can be very interesting. But you shouldn’t work too hard on it.

Here’s a page at EWTN talking about the limits of how far we can be super-definite about the doctrine.

[Here’s a good page](http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/virginity(name removed by moderator)artu.htm) talking about various specific patristic references to this doctrine, papal teachings, etc.
I agree that it is too explicit to talk about Her body part changing. I actually posted this thread after I was asked about this topic by a relative of mine. It got me thinking whether or not theology has/hasn’t touched on this before… If there is a held belief on that…then I wouldnt mind knowing it …
I have read that physical integrity meant that Mary in no sense “opened,” and that there was no “breaking of water” – no “puerperal flux” from her womb, no mix of gestational fluid, meconium fluid and blood.

I have always disagreed with this concept. It seems to contradict the Church’s own infallibly-chosen Scriptural canon – in other words, the Church’s own teaching IN Scripture.
So are you saying its a held belief among theologians?
 
And I would like to add…This isnt the most pleasant topic for theologians to discuss 😉
I am simply trying to find out if the teachings on Mary’s virginity in theology has mentioned anything on this…
 
First off, I want to emphasize that the Church doesn’t say Mary experienced no physical signs of pregnancy and childbirth.
I believe you are wrong on this. When Pope Martin I signed-off on the decree of the Lateran Council …

“If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary was really and truly the Mother of God, inasmuch as she, in the fullness of time, and without seed, conceived by the Holy Spirit, God in the Word Himself, who before all time was born of God the Father, and without loss of integrity brought Him forth, and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.”

… he meant, “She remained a sealed box.”

… which seems to mortally conflict with the doctrine that Christ at all moments before His death was “fully God and FULLY MAN.” At least a moment in earthly time would have been necessary for Him to pass out of the physical sealed box.

… which seems to mean that He wasn’t ALWAYS “fully God and FULLY MAN.”

It appears that the two doctrines war with each other.
 
I believe you are wrong on this. When Pope Martin I signed-off on the decree of the Lateran Council …

“If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary was really and truly the Mother of God, inasmuch as she, in the fullness of time, and without seed, conceived by the Holy Spirit, God in the Word Himself, who before all time was born of God the Father, and without loss of integrity brought Him forth, and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.”

… he meant, “She remained a sealed box.”

… which seems to mortally conflict with the doctrine that Christ at all moments before His death was “fully God and FULLY MAN.” At least a moment in earthly time would have been necessary for Him to pass out of the physical sealed box.

… which seems to mean that He wasn’t ALWAYS “fully God and FULLY MAN.”

It appears that the two doctrines war with each other.
How does “without loss of integrity brought Him forth” equate to " experienced no physical signs of pregnancy and childbirth."?

Integrity means wholeness. Integrity means without sickness. Any pregnant woman is not considered sick, or abnormal. That is a natural process. So to me what Pope Martin I said does not conflict with natural appearance and the carring of the infant in the womb nor that of childbirth. Of course in Mary’s giving birth, she remained a virgin, but that still does not mean she could not give birth in a natural way, because that is not a loss of integrity to give birth to a child, unless it is virginity, which has already been said to have had divine intervention.

Now I would be the first to admit that it could be simply miraculous, and all of a sudden the child Jesus was there. But that doesn’t seem to be what scripture says, “he was like to us in all things except sin.” However everyone has their own opinion.

Just a thought.
 
“Without loss of integrity” means, as far as I know, “Her reproductive tract remained closed, at all moments in time.” If gestational fluids – the “water” of “breaking water,” which are gestational fluids mixed with urine, meconium, and blood – came out, then it requires that meconium fluid have “turned spiritual’” for at least a moment in time. Okay. I can accept that.

But if God disposes of “the effluvia of childbirth” by creating what amounts to an ILLUSION that it as coming out of her birth canal, it seems to amount to God generating a DECEPTION, and also evidence CONFUSING humanity.

To say that Mary never opened up also seems to amount to a declaration that Scriptural allegations that Jesus was “born.” are untrue. Scripture uses the exact same Greek words for Jesus’ birth that Sctipture uses for John the Baptist’s birth.

Also, the Book of Wisdow infallibly declares that “all kings” are born in the same way.

The thing that bothers me most about the miraculous birth doctrine is that it seems to “dehumanize” Jesus. IS He “fully man” if He wasn’t even BORN like one, as a matter of doctrine? Was He ALWAYS “fully man” during His stay on Earth if, doctrinally, Mary ALWAYS remained a “closed box” implicitly requiring as a matter of perfect logical necessity that He “turn mystical” long enough to get out of the “enclosed box,” in partu virgin Mary’s womb?
 
You will know one day in heaven and then it wont matter, but I feel men, not understanding what makes a woman “pure” etc. said things years ago out of ignorance. Mary was human, Jesus was human, there wasn’t magic, “hocus-pocus” to make her not human. She was a pure soul, not sinning, but human. Everyone Jesus met and was with was human with human functions. Jesus was a real child, he ate, went to the bathroom, all the things that make us human. So did Mary. She was different in being holy, without sin, but to get into what happened when she gave birth, seems wrong to me and gives fodder to skeptics that say the whole thing didn’t happen when you make it seem like he just “appeared”. Why even have him born or go 9 months?He wasn’t an alien and having Jesus wouldn’t make her not a virgin, sleeping with a man would. How people thought of it many years ago, is different than now.
She will always be a perfect mother, but whether she bled or didn’t bleed doesn’t matter at all.
I might be wrong, but I think too much speculation on these things takes away from the miracle of his birth as God’s son.
 
I agree that it could have been bloody even tho miraculously virginal because the birth seemed normal in every other sense. In fact that would seem to emphasize how normal it was.

Just a thought.
Additionally, Fred, you did not address the main problem: Resolving a doctrine that says that Mary was a “closed box” PERPETUAL virgin with a doctrine that says that Jesus was fully God and FULLY man.

I.e., to get OUT of Mary’s womb, Mary either “turned mystical” for a moment in time, so that solid Jesus could get OUT of the “closed box,” in which case then Mary was NOT a “perpetual” virgin (because she stopped being “human like us” for at least a point on the time number line) or Jesus “turned mystical” for a moment in time, so that it can not be said that in His life He was ALWAYS “fully God AND fully man.”
 
I think the teachings regarding Marys perpetual virginity and Jesus’s birth are all based on ancient Jewish prejudices regarding sexual and biological purity.

Perfect women are meek and quiet and virginal. They are in no way sexual beings unless it’s required of them in service to their husbands and then only for babies. Perfect women don’t howl and scream in pain during childbirth. They don’t gush out blood and amniotic fluid and baby pooh all over the floor.

It wouldn’t be “fit” to have Jesus’s mother be “impure” in any sense. She certainly couldn’t be sexually impure. As for Jesus’s birth, again it wouldn’t be proper to have the son of God touched by a woman’s impure blood and other icky body fluids.

I find it all rather sexist myself, like being a regular wife and mother wasn’t good enough. It was okay to venerate an impossibly perfect version of a woman because she wasn’t really a woman anymore.

I guess what I’m saying is that I think the Church’s dogma regarding Mary is based on practicality and not truth.
 
Jewish ritual cleanliness didn’t have zip zilch zero in common with sexual purity, the way you seem to be picturing it. It had a lot more in common with all the rest of the standard Indo-European, and even non-Indo-European, concepts of ritual cleanliness.

Basically, ritual cleanliness was a sort of ritual safety and normality. Approaching too close to life, death, birth, menstruation, or various other strong cosmic concepts, made you no longer ritually “safe” for those who were ritually clean, because you temporarily became similarly strongly part of these powerful concepts of life, death, etc.

For example, it’s pretty standard throughout the world that women going through birth, men going through war, people cleaning the dead, etc. go past some kind of threshold that temporarily makes them not “safe”. A lot of these folks are performing tasks which are regarded by their culture as totally morally good; they are just dangerous or different or closer to God than normal life. Some of these folks are just going through normal life events. Some of these folks become “unclean” from performing morally dubious or evil acts, but it’s not the evilness that makes them unclean; it’s going past that threshold of life and death and cosmic stuff.

Becoming the Ark of the Covenant, or serving as a priest, or doing a bunch of other very religious things, also made you ritually dangerous to be around.

And if you expect that a normal woman can give birth to God made Man, without any weird effects on time/space, or that God would go to all that trouble and not throw down signs left and right, you surely are an optimist but not much of an artist. And you weren’t paying very close attention to the Gospels, because weird miraculous stuff was happening all the time!

I love you guys, but I totally don’t understand the resistance to this thread. (And apparently Jesus ceased to be true God and true Man every time he did a miracle? Especially when He walked into the room without opening any doors or windows? The whole point of His Resurrection miracles was that He was true God and true Man…)
 
Jewish ritual cleanliness didn’t have zip zilch zero in common with sexual purity, the way you seem to be picturing it. It had a lot more in common with all the rest of the standard Indo-European, and even non-Indo-European, concepts of ritual cleanliness.

Basically, ritual cleanliness was a sort of ritual safety and normality. Approaching too close to life, death, birth, menstruation, or various other strong cosmic concepts, made you no longer ritually “safe” for those who were ritually clean, because you temporarily became similarly strongly part of these powerful concepts of life, death, etc.

For example, it’s pretty standard throughout the world that women going through birth, men going through war, people cleaning the dead, etc. go past some kind of threshold that temporarily makes them not “safe”. A lot of these folks are performing tasks which are regarded by their culture as totally morally good; they are just dangerous or different or closer to God than normal life. Some of these folks are just going through normal life events. Some of these folks become “unclean” from performing morally dubious or evil acts, but it’s not the evilness that makes them unclean; it’s going past that threshold of life and death and cosmic stuff.

Becoming the Ark of the Covenant, or serving as a priest, or doing a bunch of other very religious things, also made you ritually dangerous to be around.

And if you expect that a normal woman can give birth to God made Man, without any weird effects on time/space, or that God would go to all that trouble and not throw down signs left and right, you surely are an optimist but not much of an artist. And you weren’t paying very close attention to the Gospels, because weird miraculous stuff was happening all the time!

I love you guys, but I totally don’t understand the resistance to this thread. (And apparently Jesus ceased to be true God and true Man every time he did a miracle? Especially when He walked into the room without opening any doors or windows? The whole point of His Resurrection miracles was that He was true God and true Man…)
I’m impressed. I don’t often see someone argue as well as you have been doing. 🙂

There is a couple of thoughts I’d like to add to your arsenal…

In Luke, it doesn’t say Mary went in for “her” purification according to the law;
it says she, Joseph, and Jesus went in for “their” purification according to the law.

The sanctity of Jesus’ blood was going to save the world, it would be interesting to consider what it means that a “normal” birth would cause that blood to be spilled willy nilly from the umbilical cord, and from the placenta.

We are told, that on the eighth day, Jesus was circumcised; and that is the day they gave him the name “Yeshua” or perhaps, homophonically, “Yuah - Shua”;
“God (personal! name) – saves”. (AKA Joshua).

CCC:
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ’s birth "did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.156

The life is in the blood. And we are also told “The spirit (poss. breath) gives life”.

The ancients did know about C-section, but the indications are that it was a desperate move and may have been more of something done if the mother dies or is going to die in order to save the child; and I haven’t seen any statistics or history on how well it was performed. But it is something to note that Mary may have not been well endowed in the hips in order to have a child; I f so, the miraculous birth in the specific messianic psalm (22:9) by God drawing him forth can be seen to be done to protect the child.

8 “He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” [Says the crowd at the cross!]

9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.

10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.

Many miracles in Jesus’ life were to prevent him from being pre-maturely murdered. eg: as the synagog members decided to throw him off a cliff…
This theme continues when we look back at history…:

Sarah, the Wife of Abraham had a “dead womb”. Isaac was drawn forth from this death for the first time in his mother’s womb; much like Adam was pulled out of the slime of the earth at creation. It is because of the child appearing in a womb that couldn’t support a child that Abraham was able to reason that God could even pull a child sacrificed from an altar – back out of the grave.
There was only one Heir of Abraham, and the promise made all physical threats to him something that God would deal with. (But he didn’t let Isaac suffer an un-necessary trial, rather he let an animal take it…)

One may attribute this mercy to God’s favor toward Mary; or one may attribute it to his protective fatherhood of his son. There are mysteries here to probe.

Peace to you,
Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
 
The Blessed Virgin Mary “gave birth” to our Lord in an ineffable manner.How can I explain this?It’s like after the resurrection when Christ actually passed through a closed door or wall and stood amidst the Apostles.Almost like a beam of light penetrating through a cloth.This is how I understand it.

JMJ
 
If Revelation 12:1 is referring to Our Blessed Mother as the Ark of the New Covenant, isn’t Revelation 12:2 describing the birth of Jesus?

“2 She was pregnant, and in labour, crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth.”
 
The Blessed Virgin Mary “gave birth” to our Lord in an ineffable manner.How can I explain this?It’s like after the resurrection when Christ actually passed through a closed door or wall and stood amidst the Apostles.Almost like a beam of light penetrating through a cloth.This is how I understand it.

JMJ
👍
 
If Revelation 12:1 is referring to Our Blessed Mother as the Ark of the New Covenant, isn’t Revelation 12:2 describing the birth of Jesus?

“2 She was pregnant, and in labour, crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth.”
The woman in Revelation 12 is both an individual, Mary, and a collective symbol:

Isaiah 26:17 “17 Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time, so were we because of you, O Lord”

The faithful remnant of Israel crying out for redemption.
 
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