Mary and Grace

[Genesis315]

**
****Assumption of the Virgin Mary ****(bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……**1950 A.D.**I just wanted to point out that Mary did not “ascend” into heaven. Jesus ascended, meaning he went up under His own power. Mary was assumed, meaining she was drawn up by God. Likewise, I believe the Church doesn’t say whether she died or not before she was assumed.
**

 

[robertjohn]

Well again thank you for your replies. I am asking that we end this thread rather then promote doubt, or hurt feelings on what I did not realize was a sensitive subject. Instead lets change the subject. How about those white sox???

God Bless

If you love others as yourself, you do well

 

[PeterC]

After the apostles have dispersed, the Blessed Mother goes to live with John, the beloved disciple. Mary lives many years on earth after the death of Christ. She is a source of comfort, consolation and strength to the apostles.

As she had nourished the infant Jesus, so she nourishes spiritually the infant Church.
Mary dies, not of bodily infirmity, but is wholly ravished in a rapture of divine love. Her body as well as her soul is taken up into heaven. After her burial the apostles go to the tomb and find only fragrant lilies.
Jesus does not permit the sinless body of His Mother to decay in the grave. Corruption of the body is an effect of original sin from which Mary is totally exempted. The bodies of all mankind, at the last judgment, will be brought back and united again to the soul.

rosary-center.org/glorious.htm

 

[Mathetes007]

Ruth101:

No I don’t think this is off topic. You are talking about graces so to speak, and I am pointing out why this should not be. These are things that were not part of the apostolic church of Jesus Christ and therefore should not be part of His body now.

Where in all of Scripture does it say that anyone apart from God and the Lord Jesus Christ that there is grace imparted?

“John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, *and from the seven spirits * who are before his throne, *and from Jesus Christ * the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth” (Revelation 1:4-5)

Why is it that God uses the seven spirits before His throne (Rev 8:2) to impart His grace?

 

[Mathetes007]

“Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)”

Does this sound correct? It sounds as though no mercy (grace) can be provided without her intercessory prayer.

As previously noted, John the Apostle asserts that grace can be imparted by the seven angels before the throne of God (Rev 1:4). Revelation 8 details more activity regarding these seven holy beings.

“Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censor; and *he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints * upon the golden altar before the throne; and *the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel * before God” (Revelation 8:2-4).

This passage is pretty disturbing. It leads one to believe that God is allowing a creature to receive prayers into his “hands” (i.e. power or presence as spirits do not have hands). Then this spirit adds something of his own (i.e. incense) and “mingles” it with the prayers of man to make it more pleasing to God. Lastly, the angel offers the prayer filled incense “upon the golden altar before the throne.”

From this passage we may ask as to why does God allow creatures to impart grace? Furthermore, why does God allow creatures to receive and then offer up the prayers of the saints? Are not all prayers considered worship and are we not to worship God alone?

Obviously, all worship is prayer but not all prayer is worship. God alone establishes the channels which He uses to communicate His graces. He has allowed His ministers, of which angels participate (Hebrews 1:14), to impart His grace. If He uses angels to do this and to offer up intercessory prayers for the saints, why is it not possible for the Queen of Angels to do this (Revelation 12:1 and 1:20)?

 

[Absalom]

Ruth101:

You know I have read all the responses, but I have to post this because this is what I have found and it does make me wonder about what I have believed.
This is what I have found and the year each belief was introduced. Does this not shake one’s foundation?

Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus……………. 431 A.D.
**Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……600 A.D. **
The Rosary ……1090 A.D.
Transubstantiation-Innocent III ……1215 A.D.
Adoration of the wafer (Host)……1220 A.D.
Immaculate Conception of Mary……1854 A.D.
**Assumption of the Virgin Mary **(bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……1950 A.D.
Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……1965 A.D.

I have to wonder what is going on???

It is also relevant to note that the doctrine of the trinity was not defined until long after Christ’s death, as well as the doctrine that Christ was truly God and truly man (as noted by someone in an earlier reply). Both of these doctrines are essential in most (but not all) protestant denominations (or non-denominational denominations). This kind of logic (rejecting a belief because it wasn’t defined until . . . whenever) is the kind of logic that has led the Watchtower Society to reject many essential Christian beliefs (like the belief in the trinity and that Christ was truly God and man). So, if you’re going to do it, you might as well do it right and become a Jehova’s Witness.

Does that shake your foundation?

By the way, there are a couple of common beliefs that were not “defined” until the sixteenth century: *sola scriptura *and *sola fide. *

God bless you and lead you into all truth.

 

[shirldal]

keep in mind ruth101, sir isaac newton declared gravity to exist in a certain year. does that mean we didn’t have gravity before that.

 

[rayne89]

Ruth101:

No I don’t think this is off topic. You are talking about graces so to speak, and I am pointing out why this should not be. These are things that were not part of the apostolic church of Jesus Christ and therefore should not be part of His body now.

Where in all of Scripture does it say that anyone apart from God and the Lord Jesus Christ that there is grace imparted? This has been my struggle and I can’t find one instance of it being from anyone but the LORD God almighty and Jesus Christ who died for us, rose from the dead for us, and ascended into heaven for us. According to the Bible, He is the only one that could do that!

Can you understand where I am coming from?

Ruth can you answer this question please? I’ve been taking notice of your posts. Are you a baptised Catholic? It sounds like your trying to pass yourself off as one but your responses are so fill with anti-Catholic rhetoric. We have protestants on the forum but they don’t try to pass themselves off as Catholics. If your not Catholic than be honest and say so.

 

[rayne89]

rayne89:

Ruth can you answer this question please? I’ve been taking notice of your posts. Are you a baptised Catholic? It sounds like your trying to pass yourself off as one but your responses are so fill with anti-Catholic rhetoric. We have protestants on the forum but they don’t try to pass themselves off as Catholics. If your not Catholic than be honest and say so.

Nevermind, I see that you voted with oudave about believing that Catholics worship Mary, the saints and statues. So obviously you are not Catholic. Because any practicing Catholic knows that is rediculous nonsense.

I respect protestants on here that are honest about their faith. You lose alot of credibilty when you can’t even be honest about what denomination you are. And no you never said one way or the other.

But things like:
What do you mean my priest? MY PRIEST? He is so faithful, and I do not doubt his word for one minute. He always tells us like it is. and is so compassionate; we have no problem communicating and all of us love him. What more can I say? Why would you even ask that?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=470254#post470254
Obviously you are speaking of Jesus but you don’t say that.

I have a problem with any statement of faith that has no Scriptural background, so here it is, and this is what my priest has put before us as a church.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=470238#post470238

Than you give advise to a Catholic about standing up in a marraige of 2 divorced Lutherans who are planning to marry each other. You advise
The Lord gave us free will, and if you are convinced in your mind and your decision agrees with what is right according to what God says then it is right for you to stand up for this friend a second time; there is no problem, it is between you and God.
Giving advise to a Catholic about a decision that should be made in light of Catholic teaching without revealing you are not Catholic is dishonest.

I don’t often rant at other posters. But this sneaky approach that assumes we are ignorant Catholics that need to be evangelized really gets under my skin. You came to the wrong place if you think the Catholics on this forum don’t no what the church teaches, and what scripture says. We do actually read the Bible although I’m sure you’ve been told we don’t do that either.

I’ll just go back to bowing down to my statue of Mary.

 

[rayne89]

Ok I know I’m hogging this thread right now. But my 9 year old daughter over heard me telling my hubby about the things Ruth said about believing Catholics worship Mary, saints and statues.

Let you give me her response “What! we don’t worship statues! Who would worship statues? We worship God!” So I asked her. When we’re at church and we kneel before the statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus are we praying to the statue?" She laughed and said “No, ofcourse not. The statues not alive. We’re praying to God.” So than I said “What about Mary?” She said “We love Mary, she’s very nice but we worship God.” Then she wanted me to pass along something to Ruth. She emphatically stated. “We honor Mary, but we worship God. Got it!”

 

[Ruth101]

rayne89:

Ruth can you answer this question please? I’ve been taking notice of your posts. Are you a baptised Catholic? It sounds like your trying to pass yourself off as one but your responses are so fill with anti-Catholic rhetoric. We have protestants on the forum but they don’t try to pass themselves off as Catholics. If your not Catholic than be honest and say so.

Yes I was baptized into the catholic church the year I was born. I also received 1st holy communion and was confirmed by the bishop. I have lived under four different popes; pius XII, john XXIII, john paul I and II. I attended catholic school all of my life, AND my name is still on record. I became a member of the body of Christ in 1983 when I asked Jesus to be my personal LORD and Saviour and I have been a child of GOD ever since, and not only that but my name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and that is far superior to any earthly record.

I honestly believe there is so much we don’t know and need to learn and that is why I chose to share on here what I have learned from reading the Bible. You know what puzzles me? the word “catholic” isn’t in the scripture but it does mean “of interest or use to all”,(Webster’s) which the Gospel is; it does not refer to a particular earthly organization, and the Gospel is for all people and the body is those who belong to Christ, which He is the HEAD, it is meant for all and it is a spiritual decision. (see the references below) I don’t know how anyone can get around that, and believe me when I first started reading the Bible I tried to, but it just didn’t work. So now I just trust Jesus and what He says in the Bible and live according to what the Holy Spirit has revealed. ** I do not understand how you can call the Scriptures “anti catholic rhetoric”.**
The Gospel in a few short verses is this: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Ro 1:16; Ps 40:9; 71:15; 119:46; Mr 8:38; Lu 9:26; 1Co 2:2; 2Ti 1:8,12, 16; 1Pe 4:16
the gospel. Ro 15:19, 29; Lu 2:10-11; 1Co 9:12,18; 2Co 2:12; 4:4; 9:13; Ga 1:7; 1Ti 1:11; Ro 10:17; Ps 110:2; Isa 53:1; Jer 23:29; 1Co 1:18-24; 2:4; 14:24-25; 15:2; 2Co 2:14-16; 10:4-5; Col 1:5-6; 1Th 1:5; 2:13; Heb 4:12; Ro 4:11; Ro 2:9
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Now if this is “anti catholic rhetoric” then what exactly are we supposed to base our belief on?

I hope this helps.

 

[Church_Militant]

rayne89:

Ok I know I’m hogging this thread right now. But my 9 year old daughter over heard me telling my hubby about the things Ruth said about believing Catholics worship Mary, saints and statues.

Let you give me her response “What! we don’t worship statues! Who would worship statues? We worship God!” So I asked her. When we’re at church and we kneel before the statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus are we praying to the statue?" She laughed and said “No, ofcourse not. The statues not alive. We’re praying to God.” So than I said “What about Mary?” She said “We love Mary, she’s very nice but we worship God.” Then she wanted me to pass along something to Ruth. She emphatically stated. “We honor Mary, but we worship God. Got it!”

Hey Rayne89,
Please hug that child for me and tell her she’s in my prayers forever more.

 

[MaggieOH]

Ruth101:

You don’t like history? I didn’t either until I checked it out. You really should look into it a little more. I know it does shake me. You know we are led to believe that this has always been so, and most of us have always believed that, and I remember when the last two were brought in. Go figure! And we were told then if we didn’t accept this (both times) we were going to be ex-communicated, we were also told that this has always been so.??? If you really look, the documentation is there. That is what bothers me.

Sandra (oops I mean Ruth101),

the only history that you have ever checked has come from revisionism. You have been caught lying on too many other occasions with that kind of thing.

Ruth101 you are not a Catholic and you are attempting to pass yourself off as a Catholic. It is not the first time that someone has been caught out in this particular piece of deception.

Phatacatholic has called you correctly on this one because every word has come from the likes of Loraine Boettner. What really makes a sham about any search for real facts was the tidbit about Mary’s Assumption into heaven being an “Ascension”. If you ever belonged to the Catholic Church, and I know for a fact that it is not true, you would know that Jesus alone ascended into heaven because Jesus alone has divine power. Mary was ASSUMED into heaven. That means that she did not get there under her own steam, but that the angels carried her body into heaven so that her body and soul are reunited so that she is enjoying the fruits now of what has been promised to us on Judgment Day.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

rayne89:

Nevermind, I see that you voted with oudave about believing that Catholics worship Mary, the saints and statues. So obviously you are not Catholic. Because any practicing Catholic knows that is rediculous nonsense.

I respect protestants on here that are honest about their faith. You lose alot of credibilty when you can’t even be honest about what denomination you are. And no you never said one way or the other.

But things like:
What do you mean my priest? MY PRIEST? He is so faithful, and I do not doubt his word for one minute. He always tells us like it is. and is so compassionate; we have no problem communicating and all of us love him. What more can I say? Why would you even ask that?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=470254#post470254
Obviously you are speaking of Jesus but you don’t say that.

I have a problem with any statement of faith that has no Scriptural background, so here it is, and this is what my priest has put before us as a church.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=470238#post470238

Than you give advise to a Catholic about standing up in a marraige of 2 divorced Lutherans who are planning to marry each other. You advise
The Lord gave us free will, and if you are convinced in your mind and your decision agrees with what is right according to what God says then it is right for you to stand up for this friend a second time; there is no problem, it is between you and God.
Giving advise to a Catholic about a decision that should be made in light of Catholic teaching without revealing you are not Catholic is dishonest.

I don’t often rant at other posters. But this sneaky approach that assumes we are ignorant Catholics that need to be evangelized really gets under my skin. You came to the wrong place if you think the Catholics on this forum don’t no what the church teaches, and what scripture says. We do actually read the Bible although I’m sure you’ve been told we don’t do that either.

I’ll just go back to bowing down to my statue of Mary.

If Ruth101 is the person that I think she is, then I can tell you that she is a Fundamentalist Baptist, and that yes she reads material that make false claims such as Catholics do not read the Bible, and that our priests do not read the Bible.

However, we must keep this on topic.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Ruth101:

You know what puzzles me? the word “catholic” isn’t in the scripture but it does mean “of interest or use to all”,

Well the definition that you use is wrong. The word “catholic” which was first used by St. Ignatius means universal.

We do not need your form of sharing. We have a good understanding of the Bible. I do not believe that you went to a Catholic school.

MaggieOH

 

[mtr01]

Ruth101:

Yes I was baptized into the catholic church the year I was born. I also received 1st holy communion and was confirmed by the bishop. I have lived under four different popes; pius XII, john XXIII, john paul I and II. I attended catholic school all of my life, AND my name is still on record. I became a member of the body of Christ in 1983 when I asked Jesus to be my personal LORD and Saviour and I have been a child of GOD ever since, and not only that but my name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and that is far superior to any earthly record.

I don’t mean to be rude, but what happened to you during the pontificate of Paul VI?

Ruth101:

The Gospel in a few short verses is this: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

But Ruth, Ruth, you see your mistake in quoting the above Scripture? First, Paul is telling them that they are saved by the Gospel he preached, not the Bible (there wasn’t a Bible back then…in fact it is questionable if any Gospel was even written down that early). Furthermore, the underlined parts of your quote are referring to the Old Testament, not the New.

Ruth101:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Ro 1:16; Ps 40:9; 71:15; 119:46; Mr 8:38; Lu 9:26; 1Co 2:2; 2Ti 1:8,12, 16; 1Pe 4:16
the gospel. Ro 15:19, 29; Lu 2:10-11; 1Co 9:12,18; 2Co 2:12; 4:4; 9:13; Ga 1:7; 1Ti 1:11; Ro 10:17; Ps 110:2; Isa 53:1; Jer 23:29; 1Co 1:18-24; 2:4; 14:24-25; 15:2; 2Co 2:14-16; 10:4-5; Col 1:5-6; 1Th 1:5; 2:13; Heb 4:12; Ro 4:11; Ro 2:9
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Now if this is “anti catholic rhetoric” then what exactly are we supposed to base our belief on?

I hope this helps.

Again, you underline “Gospel” for some reason. Gospel means “good news”, and it was what the Apostles preached. They weren’t Gideons handing out copies of the Bible to potential converts. They were doing it through oral tradition, as is evident from the verses you cite. “And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mk 16:15), not “go into the world and pass out Bible tracts”.