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knightbvm
Guest
YES IT IS THROUGH THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ALONE(not in the feeneyite sense) THAT MEN CAN BE SAVED–BUT–DONT GET OFF THE TOPIC–THAT GOES FOR EVERYONE—if you want to discuss salvation start a different thread!!!
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JARVET
Guest
I did not get off of topic. I was trying to clear up an accusation made by one of the postings made about me.
We all should read this with an open Heart for our Lords leading. If this is off of topic, you really should ask yourself why any of us are hear in the first place.
Q. #1 Reason for Life
I John 4 :
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
God’s Love and Ours
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son** into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
A. Glorify God.**
J
JRKH
Guest
OPEN CONCERN TO ALL INVOLVED HERE:
Please look at the title of this thread.
Now ask yourselves if the current discussion is on topic or off.
Also please EVERYONE - please keep love with each other.
:grouphug: James
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Seeker12
Guest
How about St. Thomas who did not believe in the Immaculate Conception? Or St. Paul, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Or, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". And how about personal piety and freedom in Christ and conscience? There are more examples, edited out of the Catechism, unfortunately. (This is a rhetorical post.)
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Seeker12
Guest
A carefully disguised fact of history is that St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception, although it is mentioned in the Catechism that Chrysostom did not, and leaves out mention of Thomas. This should not surprise anyone, given the way certain things may be covered up. (!)
What Jesus said, is that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Since to be a sinner i also to be a liar, we are not given by nature a perfect understanding of truth, and without the grace of God we do not have a love of truth-and this love is only proportionate to our willingness to receive it.
Mary (God bless her and her role in redemption) is for many a form of idolatry, hiding a disguised love of self.
I would not care what doctrines were promjulgated (except where I find it cause to leave the church) save for the canon laws and obligations that would require my obedience to what I, in good conscience, have reason to doubt.
And if a Saint and Doctor of the church is a reference for my defence from the prosecutors of heresy, so be it.
What Jesus said, is that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Since to be a sinner i also to be a liar, we are not given by nature a perfect understanding of truth, and without the grace of God we do not have a love of truth-and this love is only proportionate to our willingness to receive it.
Mary (God bless her and her role in redemption) is for many a form of idolatry, hiding a disguised love of self.
I would not care what doctrines were promjulgated (except where I find it cause to leave the church) save for the canon laws and obligations that would require my obedience to what I, in good conscience, have reason to doubt.
And if a Saint and Doctor of the church is a reference for my defence from the prosecutors of heresy, so be it.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I don’t think I’m clear on the point you are making. Are you saying that, because Aquinas didn’t believe in the Immaculate Conception, it is okay for us not to as he is a saint and doctor of the Church? If that were the case, it seems it might belong in another thread. This thread pertains to a proposed fifth Marian dogma (Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate). The Immaculate Conception is the already defined third Marian dogma.
Aquinas not believing in the Immaculate Conception is no scandal. It hadn’t been formally defined yet (and wouldn’t be for 600 years following his death). But now that it has, Catholics are obligated to believe it. Just as it is alright for us to have this discussion about a fifth Marian dogma right now, but if it is ever formally defined, we will be obligated to believe it. We couldn’t retroactively call someone a heretic for not believing what had not yet been defined.
Perhaps I misunderstood your point?
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Alexius
Guest
In the “old” days, dogmas were defined out of necessity. I find the Immaculate Conception and Assumption as dogmas to be silly, but not in comparison to Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix. There is really no reason to define them. I know I will be criticized for this, but these have even less to do with Christ and more to do with elevating the Blessed Theotokos. On top of that, they are confusing and even redundant. We all know the part she played in Christ’s ministry, so there is no need to make a dogma out of it.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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natsclem
Guest
oh is that surprising? even St Bernard of Clairvaux, the great Marian doctor could not fathom the possibility of Immaculate Conception. In spite of that, they cannot be said heretics because the dogma was not a dogma then–it was still in the process of doctrinal development. the main objection was Letter of Saint Paul to the Romans 5:12: “Sin entered the world through one man, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race, because everyone has sinned.”
it was blessed John Duns Scotus offered all theological arguments in favor that led to the proclamation of the said dogma. He offered interpretation to the text (Romans 5:12) that it means that every human being (including Mary) needs the redemption of Christ. In the case of Mary, the merits of Christ’s redemption (foreseen by the Triune God) is applied to her in a preventive way–more than anything else, this actually glaringly shows the excellence and perfection of Christ’s redemption and mediation. this is very fitting to her in view of the predestined incarnation of the Son of God.
for more insights, take a look at: christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/scotus&immac.htm
To my estimation, that is even more difficult than “co-redemptrix”. Since,even Paul admits "I Paul am made a minister. Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions (Col 1:23-24). In that sense we are all co-redeemers–we fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ, we share in His redemption. As light of the world and salt of the earth, we participate in His saving mission. Who can be the perfect personification of co-redemption? No doubt, that’s only Mary.
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natsclem
Guest
to my estimation, co-redemptrix is timely. That will show, even beyond Mama Mary’s role, the importance of our role as co-redeemers as something Christ willed for all of us, as something integral to being His disciple. It is timely because, we are so lethargic in proclaiming the saving message of Christ for all the world as Catholics because probably of the prevailing trend of ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue–unity at the expense of Christ’s saving truth.ecumenism today even looks like syncretism.In the “old” days, dogmas were defined out of necessity. I find the Immaculate Conception and Assumption as dogmas to be silly, but not in comparison to Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix. There is really no reason to define them. I know I will be criticized for this, but these have even less to do with Christ and more to do with elevating the Blessed Theotokos. On top of that, they are confusing and even redundant. We all know the part she played in Christ’s ministry, so there is no need to make a dogma out of it.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
do know who are in the forefront of evangelization? bringing the Gospel in the streets? the pentecostals, the witnesses, the fundamentalists, etc. Never mind their intention and the correctness of their interpretation; but have you seen a catholic–roman or eastern–in the streets and going house-to-house preaching the Word of God? Why we are not doing it despite the fact that we have Scriptures, the Tradition, and the Magisterium (if you believe in the primacy of the Peter) to guide us all the way in proclaiming the Way, the Truth, and the Life? are we co-redeemers or what?
the definition of “Co-redemptrix”, I think will do us good by clarifying the role of Mary in redemption and ours too (and the church as She is also its personification).
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natsclem
Guest
you said “can be infallible” that is simply short of saying that the ordinary magisterium can be fallible. what do you mean by constant period of time? immaculate conception was proclaimed with difficulty. great saints who were also Fathers and Doctors of the Church were even against it–St. John Damacene, St. Leo the Great, St Bernard, St. Bonaventure, & St. Thomas among others. St. Augustine was unwilling to make any comments in favor or against. Actually the prevailing opinions were the contrary. England even before the proclamation has been celebrating Mary’s Conception but was not encouraged because it was contrary to the Church’s official teachings. The franciscan friar that was graced to victoriously defend immaculate conception was only blessed–John Duns Scotus. Blessed only! and the celebration was only in England!
this is however off topic.
Co-redemptrix and the other proposed titles are only titles. What matters is the meaning of that title; that is the bone of contention. those assertions like that of Benedict XV that Mary with Christ redeemed the world, that of Monfort’s Mary dispenses all graces to whoever she wills, can all be fallible statements of devotion–they can be fallible utterances at least according to your qualification of “can be infallible when…proclaimed over a constant period of time” as those utterances were only heard of them and therefore in their own time. I say it can be fallible because the contrary has not been defined yet.
Until its dogmatic definition, do not call it a dogma.
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JARVET
Guest
This brother in Christ remembers you all in prayer as a whole, praying for the whole body of Christ…
With Love in Christ,
God Bless you all!
Mike Moore
With Love in Christ,
God Bless you all!
Mike Moore
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Actually, this is the third time you’ve accused me of something that I haven’t done at all, until now: namely, make a post to this thread. Look carefully. “JKirkLVNV” is slightly different from “JRKH.”
I only happened across this because I was unable to sleep with a headache. I’m glad I took the ibuprophen BEFORE I started reading this thread.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
St. Irenaeus of Lyons seems to agree.
“That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled,—was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word.” (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 19, Verse 1)
“That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled,—was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word.” (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 19, Verse 1)
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