Mary being sinless...and death

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Given these three facts:
  1. Mary was sinless.
  2. The Church teaching that she was assumed body and soul into heaven.
  3. Adam’s punishment on all mankind for sin was death.
Does this mean that she did not die before being assumed? 🤷
 
kkelley said:
Given these three facts:
  1. Mary was sinless.
  2. The Church teaching that she was assumed body and soul into heaven.
  3. Adam’s punishment on all mankind for sin was death.
Does this mean that she did not die before being assumed? 🤷
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Paragraph 20 of Munificentissimus Deus talks about Mary’s “dead body” – read those words carefully: “dead body” – not suffering from corruption before her assumption.

Many here claim that we are free to ignore those words.

(Because Mary died despite her Immaculate Conception, I also believe that the “wailing woman” labouring to give birth as she screams wildly in terrible pain in Revelation 12 is Mary. John, the author of Revelation, would know best: He cared for Mary after the crucifixion.)
 
  1. The woman who cries out in travail in Rev. 12 is NOT the Virgin, because she did NOT suffer such pains. This is the tradition of the Church.
  2. In the Roman office for the feast promulgated in 1950 when Pius XII dogmatized the Assumption, the fifth Matins lesson, quoting St. John of Damascus, says “But she yielded obedience to the law established by him to whom she had given birth, and, as the daughter of the old Adam, underwent the old sentence, which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused [that is, death].”
Furthermore the liturgical texts of all the Eastern Churches (Catholic and non-) say that she did suffer physical death.

Lex orandi, lex credendi. If it’s in the liturgical formularies of the Church, it’s the teaching of the church.
 
bpbasilphx said:
  1. The woman who cries out in travail in Rev. 12 is NOT the Virgin, because she did NOT suffer such pains. This is the tradition of the Church.
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I believe that it is error to contend that Mary did not suffer terrible pain in giving birth, and error to infer that Jesus’ birth was not essentially the same bloody, gooey, wonderful experience that almost humanity had experienced up to the point.
 
bpbasilphx said:
  1. The woman who cries out in travail in Rev. 12 is NOT the Virgin, because she did NOT suffer such pains. This is the tradition of the Church.
Click to expand...
I’m not disputing the rest of your post, but where did you find this? I’ve never heard anything about whether of not she suffered pains. Why would she be subject to death as a descendant of Adam, but not subject to pains as a descendant of Eve?

Officially, I believe Catholics are free to believe either way. Do you have any sources? I think there are reasons to support both sides, and it’s not essential for salvation from the Catholic understanding.

Someone help if I’m wrong…
 
It’s a pious tradition to believe that Mary’s labor was painless, as it is to believe that the Infant Jesus never cried. Not dogmatic.

The argument would be that pain in childbirth was the punishment given to Eve for her part in Original Sin, so that Mary having been preserved from original sin would not suffer the pains of childbirth.
 
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