Mary, Eve, & The Woman of Revelation

[Singinbeauty]

I think the protestants and catholics can all agree that Mary was a wonderful and incredible woman who put herself out there for God and all of mankind. That being said…

There has been a lot of talk about the symbolism in the bible between the old and new testaments. Starting with God talking to Satan about Eve but somehow it is actually Him talking about Mary in the future. Huh?

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Ok, so, can we agree that Adam and Eve were the first to be created and that there were no other humans on this earth at the time of their creation and when this conversation between Satan and God took place? So, in essence, Eve is the mother of the human race given that she is the first woman. The human race, being her seed, has been the focus of Satan’s corruption since time began. Trying to keep us away from God. Starting with Adam and Eve.

Enmity: Deep-seated, often mutual hatred.

Do humans, especially those who love God, love Satan? Hmmmmm I don’t think so. And after what went down between Eve and Satan she probably didn’t have him over for tea and cakes (I hope you hear the sarcasm there). Eve is called ‘the woman’ here in this verse because she was THE WOMAN. There were no others at the time. Her offspring is us. The human race. And who conquers over Satan? Yes, Jesus. Fully man (human). Who wouldn’t have been able to be birthed from Mary if it hadn’t been for Eve. Symbolism in the old testament? Of course but to say that God went from talking about Eve to talking about Mary who wasn’t even close to existing at the time is down right reaching.

I will discuss the woman in Revelation 12 in my next post… let’s just get started with the mud slinging and the hateful remarks towards protestants and my faith with this for now…

Gosh, isn’t it sad that a protestant feels this way when they say something they know the catholics are going to disagree with? I really wish I could say that I am going to meet with charitable remarks to my statement made above but somehow I doubt the majority will be just that…

 

[kleary]

Singinbeauty:

Of course but to say that God went from talking about Eve to talking about Mary who wasn’t even close to existing at the time is down right reaching.

No it is not because everything that was ever done before God said that, and everything that was being done while God said that and everything that was to be done after God said that IS ALL PRESENT TO GOD.

Ken

 

[Eden]

I can feel the giddiness in the first post. But this is so odd. I just was browsing and found this thread. It is a reference to the “Protestants why are you not Catholic?” thread in Non-Catholic religions. I’m just wondering why SinginBeauty did not reference the specific thread or tell us over there that she had started this new thread.

She is referring to scripturecatholic.com . The sub-topic is “The Virgin Mary”:

Scripture

I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[Della]

Originally Posted by Singinbeauty
Of course but to say that God went from talking about Eve to talking about Mary who wasn’t even close to existing at the time is down right reaching.

I’m afraid the Bible disagrees with you here. It is evident that God had the whole plan of salvation in mind before he created Adam and Eve. He knew exactly who would be the mother of his Son and when she would be born. Nothing is unknown to him. Nothing.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Eden:

I can feel the giddiness in the first post. But this is so odd. I just was browsing and found this thread. It is a reference to the “Protestants why are you not Catholic?” thread in Non-Catholic religions. I’m just wondering why SinginBeauty did not reference the specific thread or tell us over there that she had started this new thread.

She is referring to scripturecatholic.com . The sub-topic is “The Virgin Mary”:

Scripture

I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Actually, that may have been the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ but I have been wondering about this for a while. This is NOT in reference to that thread as this is a completely different thought than what that thread represents…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Eden:

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

So, let me get this straight, Jesus (the ‘enmity’ as you call Him) is deep seated hatred? Because, according to the King James Version, God puts enmity between the woman and the snake. According to the dictionary ‘enmity’ means deep seated hatred. Something isn’t floating here…

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

Actually, that may have been the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ but I have been wondering about this for a while. This is NOT in reference to that thread as this is a completely different thought than what that thread represents…

I’m not sure I’m understanding.

 

[awfulthings9]

Singinbeauty:

I will discuss the woman in Revelation 12 in my next post… let’s just get started with the mud slinging and the hateful remarks towards protestants and my faith with this for now…

Gosh, isn’t it sad that a protestant feels this way when they say something they know the catholics are going to disagree with? I really wish I could say that I am going to meet with charitable remarks to my statement made above but somehow I doubt the majority will be just that…

Wow. Singinbeauty, this doesn’t seem to be the same person I met at the forums you set up. You know, when someone, say a Protestant, sets up a post that attacks my faith in an uncharitable way, my response will usually be curt and no-nonsense. However, when someone is genuinely seeking an answer, I think that I, as well as most in here, display great respect.

Your post seems to indicate that the bitter Catholics in here will tear into you for your question and that this is a Catholic trait alone, hence your statement: “Gosh, isn’t it sad that a protestant feels this way when they say something they know the catholics are going to disagree with?” I think many a Catholic could say the same thing after having visited some of the Protestant dominated forums, such as CARM.

There will be bad apples in every bunch, but I’ll have to admit, I’m just taken aback by the fact that you, who seemed such a charitable and easy to get to know person on your forums, would have posted such a presumptious opening comment. Actually, I’m offended.

To answer your post, your interpretation of Gen. 3:15 is not incorrect. Nor is ours. As you know, Scripture has many layers of meaning. To answer, though, how we can read Mary into that verse, I need only remind you that we have the teaching authority of the Church, which we believe is guided by the Holy Spirit. If the Church tells us that Mary is a specific fullfillment of that verse, we believe it.

Sigh. I wish I could have answered that without the rant. If I’ve personally ever responded to you in a way that made you go on the offensive, I hope you’ll message me privately to let me know when that happened so I can apologize.

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

So, let me get this straight, Jesus (the ‘enmity’ as you call Him) is deep seated hatred? Because, according to the King James Version, God puts enmity between the woman and the snake. According to the dictionary ‘enmity’ means deep seated hatred. Something isn’t floating here…

You are not understanding. Emnity to Satan. Who would be an enemy to satan? This is foreshadowing of the Savior. It was actually John (you know who wrote Revelation) who first indicated that Mary was the “New Eve”.

***“I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
He will crush your head,
while you strike at his heel.” ******Genesis 3:15 ***

 

[Eden]

I’ll let someone else do my work. I don’t feel like putting in the effort after the thread introduction, but I do want to answer:

It starts in response to the passage in question and “emnity”:

biblescripture.net/First.html

This passage is striking! A message of hope is given humanity, for, even though God begins to punish the offenders, he speaks of mankind having offspring -so his blessing on mankind of future generations has not been removed. This is in itself a declaration of mercy.

God informs the serpent he will put enmity between the serpent and the woman. The word is used only a few times in the Old Testament, and is used to connote tension or hostility between two enemies, families, or individuals, often, as in Ezekiel, in a continual state. This is reinforced by the second part of the sentence, “between your offspring and hers.” The Hebrew word זרע is the same for “offspring” and “seed”, accounting for the difference in English translations, but in both cases the word is masculine.

The second sentence begins with a personal pronoun. The word may refer either to the “woman”, or may refer to the offspring or seed of the woman. Thus the beginning of the second part of Genesis 3:15 is translated primarily in two ways. Both the Latin Vulgate and the Douay-Rheims translations convey this passage as “she will crush your head, while you strike at his heel “… whereas the King James version, the Revised Standard Version, and the NIV read “he will crush your head…” Both are correct!

Gary Rendsburg in Biblica concludes that one of the characteristics of the ancient Hebrew text of the Pentateuch was the same inscription for a third personal singular pronoun, irrespective of gender, known as an epicene HW’.10 An epicene personal pronoun is one which has but one form to indicate either male or female sex. In other words, the same word
הוא
was used for both “he” and “she.”1 This explains why both translations, one referring to a woman, the other to a man, are correct.

Genesis 3:15 has a prophetic nature to it, for there is a promise in the future of redemption, that someone will crush the head of the serpent. God’s judgement upon the serpent contains a promise of ultimate victory by the woman through her offspring. This concept will be developed in a spiritual sense throughout Scripture and the Fathers of the Church.

St. Paul addresses original sin, and calls Adam “a type of the one to come,” referring to Christ in his Letter to the Romans. The word for Adam and man is the same in Hebrew, and Jesus called himself the Son of Man.

***Therefore as sin came into the world through one man
and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned -
sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam,
who was a type of the one who was to come. ******Romans 5:12-14 ***

St. Paul uses similar language to Genesis 3:15 to refer to Christ crushing Satan:

***Then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. ******Romans 16:20 ***

Who is the “woman”?
Adam calls her “woman”- אשׁה - until he names her Eve – חוה – in verse 3:20.
St. Matthew, in speaking of Mary being with child, sees the fulfillment of two Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah, that of Isaiah 7:14 and Micah 5:1-4, in Jesus Christ [Matthew 1:20-2:6].

St. John was the first to implicitly refer to Mary as Eve, the “woman” of Genesis 3:15. 1 St. John’s Gospel refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as “woman” at the wedding feast at Cana [John 2:1-5]. When Mary informs Jesus that they have no wine, he calls his mother “woman,” that his “hour has not yet come.”

***On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee,
and the mother of Jesus was there;
Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him,
“They have no wine.”
And Jesus said to her,
“O ***woman, what have you to do with me?
My hour has not yet come.”
His mother said to the servants,
"Do whatever he tells you.
John 2:1-5 *** ***

 

[Eden]

More analysis, same article:

As Jesus was dying on the cross, he called out to his mother, “Woman, behold your son [John 19:26].”

***When Jesus saw his mother, *

***and the disciple whom he loved standing near, ***
***he said to his mother, ***
***“Woman, behold, your son!” ***
***Then he said to the disciple, ***
***“Behold, your mother!” ***
***And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. ***
***John 19:26-27 *****

Father George Montague notes that “woman” was not the customary way for a semitic son to call his mother, so that together in these two scenes, “woman” suggests much deeper symbolism. Jesus is the offspring of the woman, and by naming Mary with this title, Jesus is suggesting that the earlier promise of salvation is being fulfilled.19

Beyond John the Apostle, we have evidence that other early Christians who knew the symbolism. Here’s one:

St. Justin Martyr [120-165 AD] was the first Church Father to draw an explicit comparison between Eve and Mary: "For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the Spirit of the Lord should … overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered, “Be it done to me according to Thy word.” 21

 

[St.Eric]

Singinbeauty:

Gosh, isn’t it sad that a protestant feels this way when they say something they know the catholics are going to disagree with? I really wish I could say that I am going to meet with charitable remarks to my statement made above but somehow I doubt the majority will be just that…

The same can be said for a Catholic on a protestant forum. I dont think I personally have been too uncharitible on 300 + remarks but, oh well. Had to throw that out there.

 

[Thal59]

The Hebrew text of Gen. 3:15 indicates “they” not “He” or “She.” In other words, both the woman and her seed have some role in the defeat of evil such that both should be rightly credited.

The term “woman’s seed” to the people of that time refers to a woman’s son. This gives the reader one of two choices. Eve and Seth, or Mary and Jesus. To say:

“…but to say that God went from talking about Eve to talking about Mary who wasn’t even close to existing at the time is down right reaching,” is not a valid observation, unless you believe that Seth defeated Satan once and for all.

To give the credit to the woman who failed, over the woman who succeeded is down right reaching.

Thal59

 

[Eden]

I think the protestants and catholics can all agree that Mary was a wonderful and incredible woman who put herself out there for God and all of mankind. That being said…

Singinbeauty, when you say Our Lady is “blessed” are you pronouncing it “blest” or “BLESS-ed”? I was just thinking about a post you made several days ago in response to the Biblical prophecy about Mary in Luke 1:48: “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed”.

You said

Mary is BLESSED. Of course. I think that I would feel immensely blessed if God chose me out of every woman on earth to bare His Son, Savior of the World. Who denies that she was blessed? She got to care and talk to Jesus as He was growing. She got to see God in action as a child and as a man. She got to know God on a personal level that no one else can. But she also said that she needed a savior.

Luke is not just saying that future generations will call her blessed as in “She sure was blessed (blest) to have been chosen” but literally we will call her Blessed (BLESS-ed) as in the “Blessed Mother”.

 

[Fidelis]

… let’s just get started with the mud slinging and the hateful remarks towards protestants and my faith with this for now…

Gosh, isn’t it sad that a protestant feels this way when they say something they know the catholics are going to disagree with? I really wish I could say that I am going to meet with charitable remarks to my statement made above but somehow I doubt the majority will be just that…

I sadly agree with the other posters regarding this salvo! Last time I heard from you, singinbeauty, you’re attitude was much more well-balanced and recocnizant of the fact that there are jerks on both sides of the Tiber.

 

[MaggieOH]

Singinbeauty:

I think the protestants and catholics can all agree that Mary was a wonderful and incredible woman who put herself out there for God and all of mankind. That being said…

There has been a lot of talk about the symbolism in the bible between the old and new testaments. Starting with God talking to Satan about Eve but somehow it is actually Him talking about Mary in the future. Huh?

Ok, so, can we agree that Adam and Eve were the first to be created and that there were no other humans on this earth at the time of their creation and when this conversation between Satan and God took place? So, in essence, Eve is the mother of the human race given that she is the first woman. The human race, being her seed, has been the focus of Satan’s corruption since time began. Trying to keep us away from God. Starting with Adam and Eve.

Enmity: Deep-seated, often mutual hatred.

Do humans, especially those who love God, love Satan? Hmmmmm I don’t think so.

I will deal only with this portion of the post because there is a supposition in the remainder that is theologically errant, when Jesus in fact called His Mother, “Woman”, such that Eve is not “The Woman” who is promised by the Father.

However, I will deal with the meaning of “enmity” which means “hatred of”. The question is asked, do those who love God, also love Satan. Well, this is in reality a straw man question for the very reason that we are all tempted to sin and there are times when we fall prey to sin. To sin means that one is not the enemy of Satan. Only one Woman has ever been considered to be the one who is the enemy of Satan because she did not give into Temptation. Her title is “Full of Grace” Any ideas who she might be?