Mary Immaculately Concieved

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In the thread concerning Elijah and Enoch, an issue came up concerning Mary’s Immaculate Conception. According to someone, Mary was only born without original sin, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which means without Sanctifying Grace). Furthermore, according to his beliefs, Mary was Baptized - at the foot of the Cross.

He said it should be disscussed in a different thread. So, if it isn’t apparent 🙂 , this is the thread.
 
oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOODNESS… what did the angel gabriel say… “Hail Mary” “FULL OF GRACE”… NOW HOW CAN YOU BE FULL OF GRACE AND NOT HAVE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY GHOST…

you guys have got to get a grip… quit running in fear of the Mother of God… you will be o k… i promise… 👍
 
space ghost:
oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOODNESS… what did the angel gabriel say… “Hail Mary” “FULL OF GRACE”… NOW HOW CAN YOU BE FULL OF GRACE AND NOT HAVE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY GHOST…

you guys have got to get a grip… quit running in fear of the Mother of God… you will be o k… i promise… 👍
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Bravo! 😃

P.S. I notice you’re from Rineyville…I live in E-town. Nice to see a neighbor! 👋
 
*According to someone, Mary was only born without original sin, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which means without Sanctifying Grace). *

Whoa! I never said that Mary was not born in a state of sanctifying grace. She was. Let me give some details about what I believe, without asserting that everyone must accept my beliefs as Catholic dogma. There are theological controversies involved in this issue that have never been definitively settled by the Church. This is truly an area of legitimate theological debate.
That said, the following is my reasoning.

Adam and Eve were living in a state of sanctifying grace in original justice. When Adam and Eve were created, they did not yet have the indwelling of the God in their souls, but they were predestined by God to receive that glory. Adam and Eve were predestined by God to receive an even greater state of sanctifying grace that they possessed in original justice by becoming fully “divinized” at some future time, i.e. they were to become partakers of the divine nature.

Speaking of the Adam and Eve in the state of original justice, the CCC says this:

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

398 ** … Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory …

Adam and Eve never did receive the gift they had been created to receive while they were dwelling in the terrestrial paradise. Adam and Eve chose disobedience to the expressed will of God, and they were expelled from the terrestrial paradise before they received the indwelling of God. I believe that their full “divinization” would have come through eating of the tree of life, a veiled reference to the Eucharist.

More…
 
Continued …

Where did I get such crazy ideas? From reading Catholic mystics such as the Blessed Mary of Agreda and meditating on Genesis chapter 3. Much to my surprise, I found that my thinking is “Scotist” in at least some ways.

Controversy as to the Conditioned or Unconditioned Predestination of the Incarnation

There is a controversy between the Thomists and the Scotists as to whether the prime motive of the Incarnation of the Son of God was the redemption of mankind, so that without the Fall of the first parents the Incarnation would not have taken place (conditioned predestination of the Incarnation) or whether it was the glory of God. In the Scotist view, the Son of God, in order to crown the work of Creation, would have become man even without the Fall, but in an impassible body (unconditioned or absolute predestination of the Incarnation). …

The Scotists find it inappropriate that sin, which God hates, should be the occasion of the most glorious Revelation of God. ….According to the Scotist view, all grace, not only the grace of fallen mankind, but the grace of man in Paradise, and the grace of the angels, derives from the merits of the God-Man. Thus Christ assumes a central all-transcending position in the Divine world-plan.

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine

The"Son of God … would have become man even without the Fall." Mary was predestined by God to be the human Mother of the Son of God - with or without the Fall. If Jesus had been born in Paradise, Mary would still have been the vessel of the Incarnation. Mary would have been born before Jesus, and she would have not have had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when she was conceived by her parents. But she would have brought the indwelling of God to all of mankind through the Incarnation, because she has always been predestined to be the Mediatrix of all Graces.
 
HOW CAN YOU BE FULL OF GRACE AND NOT HAVE THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY GHOST…

Luke is careful to say that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.
Luke 1:35

The prophets of the OT could work miracles when the Holy Spirit rested upon them (i.e. overshadowed them). The OT prophets did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - that glorious gift was yet to be given to men. The overshadowing of the Holy Spirit was not constant on the prophets. My gut feeling is that the Holy Spirit constantly overshadowed Mary until she received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Calvary. Mary was the first person to ever receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, she was the very first Catholic, and that is why she is my Mother.
  • you guys have got to get a grip… quit running in fear of the Mother of God… *
I love the Blessed Mom! 👍

And there is no point in trying to hide from the Blessed Mom because she is like moms everywhere – she knows when you are trying to get away with something she doesn’t approve of … :o
 
But Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” when she heard Mary greet her (in Luke chapter 1). Also John the Baptist was “filled” with the Holy Spirit from his birth. And after John the Baptist’s birth his father, Zacharias, was “filled” with the spirit. Not 'overshadowed" but “filled”.
 
But Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” when she heard Mary greet her (in Luke chapter 1). Not 'overshadowed" but “filled”.

Is your argument that Elizabeth had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Sacramental Baptism was instituted by Christ?

Elisabeth was able to prophesize because she was filled with the Holy Spirit as the Ark of the New Covenant drew near to her. She was like an OT prophet in that respect.

Being filled with the Spirit of God does not necessarily mean having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes through the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

Moses said that Bezalel was filled with the Spirit of God:

And Moses said to the people of Israel, "See, the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft.
Exodus 35:30-33
 
Matt16_18 said:
But Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit” when she heard Mary greet her (in Luke chapter 1). Not 'overshadowed" but “filled”.

Is your argument that Elizabeth had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Sacramental Baptism was instituted by Christ?
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No, I’m just saying that the word used is “filled” not “overshadowed”. 🙂
 
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bonica:
No, I’m just saying that the word used is “filled” not “overshadowed”. 🙂
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OK 👍

So what do you think of the “Scotist” idea that Jesus would have incarnated in Paradise if the Fall had never happened?
 
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Matt16_18:
So what do you think of the “Scotist” idea that Jesus would have incarnated in Paradise if the Fall had never happened?
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I think it’s a moot point. The fall *did *happen. We should just thank God that Jesus was incarnated so that we are not without hope. I would rather focus on what actually is, not what might have been *if…🙂 *
 
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bonica:
I think it’s a moot point. The fall *did *happen. We should just thank God that Jesus was incarnated so that we are not without hope. I would rather focus on what actually is, not what might have been *if…🙂 *
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No doubt that the fall did happen.

I think that the Scotist POV has some interesting implications about the Catholic theology of predestination – but that a topic is for yet another thread.

Catholic Doctrines are like threads in a tapestry – tug on one thread of the tapestry, and the whole tapestry gets pulled … 😉
 
Matt16 18, there reason I am confused is that my understanding of sanctifying grace is that it is the life of the Trinity -the life of God - within the soul. For this reason, the statement that Mary did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but did have sanctifying grace, seems a contradiction to me.

Also, you earlier stated that Mary was overshadowed with the Holy Spirit. I read that somewhere that this phrase had some meaning concerning the Holy Spirit taking her as His spouse, or something along those lines - i think it might be in one of the catholic answers tracts. I’ll look for it and see if I can find it.
 
thisismyusername

*Matt16 18, there reason I am confused is that my understanding of sanctifying grace is that it is the life of the Trinity -the life of God - within the soul. *

That used to confuse me too. But then as I read more about original justice, I found out that Adam and Eve once did possess sanctifying grace, and that they lost that grace in the Fall, along with the preternatural gifts. I also found out that the sanctifying grace of original justice was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So what kind of sanctifying grace did Adam and Eve have? To sanctify means to make holy. Adam and Eve were created pure and holy, without spot or stain (i.e. immaculate). So it is possible for humans to be sanctified without possessing the indwelling of the God.
*
Also, you earlier stated that Mary was overshadowed with the Holy Spirit. I read that somewhere that this phrase had some meaning concerning the Holy Spirit taking her as His spouse, or something along those lines*

Here are a few of verses in the scriptures where overshadow is used:

The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.
Exodus 25:20

The cloud was seen overshadowing the camp,
and dry land emerging where water had stood before,
an unhindered way out of the Red Sea,
and a grassy plain out of the raging waves,
where those protected by thy hand passed through as one nation,
after gazing on marvelous wonders.
Wisdom 19:7-8

He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
Matt:17:5

None of these uses of overshadow suggest becoming pregnant, but all of them involve a theophany of the Holy Spirit, or the Ark of the Covenant.

The Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant overshadowed the mercy seat with their wings – an image of angels protecting the mercy seat, and protecting what lies within the Ark of the Covenant. The Cherubim have their faces turned towards the mercy seat.

Luke is full typology that makes the Ark of the Covenant a type that finds its antitype in Mary bearing Jesus in her womb. For Luke, Mary with child is the Ark of the New Covenant. I don’t think it is mere coincidence Luke chose the word “overshadow” to when talking about Mary’s conception of Jesus.
 
Thisismyusername

Also, you earlier stated that Mary was overshadowed with the Holy Spirit. I read that somewhere that this phrase had some meaning concerning the Holy Spirit taking her as His spouse …

A point to note. The Immaculate Conception is not a dogma about Jesus being conceived in the womb of Mary. It is a dogma about Mary being conceived in the womb of Anne.

Mary’s parents were conceived in original sin. Yet, by a miracle of God’s grace, they were able to reach a state of sanctification that was so great that they were able to conceive a child that was free from original sin. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is also about Anne and Joachim, not just Mary.
 
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