Mary in the Mind of God

[friardchips]

All are created at the moment of Conception. Why in the world would some be created later??? God Bless, Memaw

I’d say that this needs alteration. Creation came to be, from the Creator, from when the Creator Willed ALL into being, before time began. He doesn’t continue to speak; He has spoken. We are the continuation, the unfolding of His Will, through The Word.

 

[friardchips]

I don’t think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 366 and 382, says that the “soul is created immediately by God.” I’m pretty sure that means that the human soul is created at the time of conception not before. I’m not sure about the souls of twins, whether they are both created at conception or one is created at conception and another is created later when the twinning takes place.

Can you cite from the part of the CCC that says this rather than just put the numbers up so we can have a look please?

 

[Memaw]

Because in the case of identical twins, either the second soul is formed when the zygote divides in two, or that zygote for a time holds two human souls.

ICXC NIKA

It really doesn’t do any good to try to second guess God, He knows what he’s doing.
My husband was an identical twin , they were raised in a very anti-God home, their Dad was very anti! But they both came to faith later in life.my husband a Catholic and his brother the faith of his wife. God Bless, Memaw

 

[friardchips]

ha ha ha!! - thanks for your reply - I am so inspired by our MOM that I have contacted a Catholic theologian I know on Facebook to get his take on it !!!

Excellent!

 

[Memaw]

I’d say that this needs alteration. Creation came to be, from the Creator, from when the Creator Willed ALL into being, before time began. He doesn’t continue to speak; He has spoken. We are the continuation, the unfolding of His Will, through The Word.

I think we were talking about the soul, not the body!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[friardchips]

The Father already spoke the Word and through Him all things came to be. THIS is also in the CCC. So, if He has already spoken, then we were already in the mind of the Creator and due to be born through the Second Person, in time. So how can we be created again? We can’t. It would appear that our souls were already in the mind of the Creator yet not created, and only came into being, “were created”, at the point of conception, made possible through the Second Person, from the time the Father spoke The Word. It might be that the word ‘created’ in the CCC means ‘brought into creation’ but the thought of us was already due - we were already willed, or rather, we didn’t need to be, because all is in The Word, so from the time The Word was spoken, we were due at some point!

 

[friardchips]

I think we were talking about the soul, not the body!! God Bless, Memaw

I know we were. I am still talking about our souls.

 

[Vico]

but this is titled in the Little Office of the BVM" - “Mary in the Mind of God”
this is speaking of Mary not Jesus - or do I misunderstand the meaning of this scripture?

St. Paul identifies Jesus Christ as Wisdom in Hebrews 1:3 by paraphrasing Wisdom 7:21-27 “the worker of all things . . . a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God . . . the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness”.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Ineffabilis Deus describes the Uncreated Wisdom is the origin of both Mary and the Incarnation of Divine Wisdom.
Liturgical Argument

The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God, is the pillar and base of truth and has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin – a doctrine which is so perfectly in harmony with her wonderful sanctity and preeminent dignity as Mother of God – and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts. From this very doctrine, flourishing and wondrously propagated in the Catholic world through the efforts and zeal of the bishops, was made very clear by the Church when she did not hesitate to present for the public devotion and veneration of the faithful the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin.[2] By this most significant fact, the Church made it clear indeed that the conception of Mary is to be venerated as something extraordinary, wonderful, eminently holy, and different from the conception of all other human beings – for the Church celebrates only the feast days of the saints.

And hence the very words with which the Sacred Scriptures speak of Uncreated Wisdom and set forth his eternal origin, the Church, both in its ecclesiastical offices and in its liturgy, has been wont to apply likewise to the origin of the Blessed Virgin, inasmuch as God, by one and the same decree, had established the origin of Mary and the Incarnation of Divine Wisdom.

 

[GEddie]

I think we were talking about the soul, not the body!! God Bless, Memaw

Doesn’t really matter!! Each soul is formed in and for the body!!

The hideous and shameful punishment that is death doesn’t change that the soul, while alive is the soul of the body!!!

ICXC NIKA

 

[TimothyH]

But the first lines: “The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways,the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.” applies only to Jesus or to be even more exact, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, The Only Begotten Son.

This is 100% correct and the answer to the question.

Jesus is begotten, not made, just like it says in the creed.

The rest of us, including Our Lady, are created.

-Tim-

 

[oppositeman]

This is 100% correct and the answer to the question.

Jesus is begotten, not made, just like it says in the creed.

The rest of us, including Our Lady, are created.

-Tim-

To everyone still following this thread - I have contacted a Catholic theologian I know on Facebook and this is what he has to say (I am sure he could say much more but I don’t want to get too deep into something I am not knowledgeable in) -

Dr. Bowring says:

This is Church doctrine… that Mary was in the mind of God from eternity and from the beginning of creation. Yet she did not exist until her conception.

It refers to Wisdom most directly (reference to posted scripture)

While God sees the past and future in the eternal now, and thus knew us all from eternity, still there is something special about the references to His knowing Mary and planning from all eternity His creation of her.

So, in some ways it refers to Mary too

end of what Dr. Bowring said

Dr. Bowring says nothing about Jesus.

SO NOW I CAN SEE WHY IN THE LITTLE OFFICE OF THE BVM IT IS TITLED “MARY IN THE MIND OF GOD”.

 

[Richca]

Am I to understand that Mary was beside the Holy Trinity at the foundation of creation? That she was created before creation?

No. Mary was created a couple of thousand years ago, 14 or 15 years before the incarnation of Christ. Her parents, according to tradition are Sts. Joachim and Ann. However, Mary as well as all of us, have been in God’s knowledge, intellect or mind from all eternity. God has known from all eternity that he would create Mary and us at a certain point in time. So, Mary existed in God’s knowledge from all eternity but Mary began her own existence and being, distinct from God’s existence and being about 2000 years ago just as we began our existence distinct from God’s existence and knowledge 20, 40, or 60 years ago or so.

 

[oppositeman]

No. Mary was created a couple of thousand years ago, 14 or 15 years before the incarnation of Christ. Her parents, according to tradition are Sts. Joachim and Ann. However, Mary as well as all of us, have been in God’s knowledge, intellect or mind from all eternity. God has known from all eternity that he would create Mary and us at a certain point in time. So, Mary existed in God’s knowledge from all eternity but Mary began her own existence and being, distinct from God’s existence and being about 2000 years ago just as we began our existence distinct from God’s existence and knowledge 20, 40, or 60 years ago or so.

Yes, I believe what you have said - but it may not be that simple - I am sure you would agree that there is much we don’t know about Mary.

Just above your comment is what Dr. Bowring, Catholic Theologian, in part, says about the posted scripture:

While God sees the past and future in the eternal now, and thus knew us all from eternity, still there is something special about the references to His knowing Mary and planning from all eternity His creation of her.

 

[Richca]

Yes, I believe what you have said - but it may not be that simple - I am sure you would agree that there is much we don’t know about Mary.

Just above your comment is what Dr. Bowring, Catholic Theologian, in part, says about the posted scripture:

While God sees the past and future in the eternal now, and thus knew us all from eternity, still there is something special about the references to His knowing Mary and planning from all eternity His creation of her.

Well, I would agree that there is much we can learn about Mary yet. However, concerning the time of Mary’s actual existence or when God created her, there is no speculation here. Mary came into existence here on earth just like any other human being through her parents and God creating her soul at her conception as he does with every other human being. Mary came into existence at her conception, her Immaculate Conception, probably about 15 years or so before she became the mother of Christ who was conceived in her womb about 2000 years ago. Christ himself, the God-Man, although he existed from all eternity in his divine nature as he is the eternal Son of God, did not exist in his human nature as a true man until he took flesh in Mary’s womb about 2000 years ago.

Our Blessed Lady is a creature of God, a human being, and a human being comes into existence at their conception in the womb of a human mother when God immediately creates and infuses the spiritual soul into the matter supplied by the parents.

The posted scripture in question is a praise of personified Wisdom which finds its fulfillment literally in the revelation and incarnation of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, whom St Paul calls “Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God.” Jesus himself says “I am the Truth.”

In the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mary is called the Seat of Wisdom because the eternal Son of God who proceeds from the Father’s intellect and who is Wisdom itself, took up His abode in the womb of Mary at the incarnation. Mary, among all God’s creatures, is more united to God and to the three persons of the Blessed Trinity than any other creature. She possesses the gifts of the Holy Spirit which include the gifts of wisdom and knowledge in a far higher degree than any other creature of God. So, I think in applying the posted scripture in question to our Blessed Mother, we are praising her wisdom, her love of God and neighbor, she can teach us the ways of God and the way of Jesus Christ, her divine Son, who is Wisdom itself and who took up his abode at his incarnation in the very womb of Mary for nine months. Our Blessed Mother, like no other creature of God, can lead us to God and Jesus Christ. As she is full of grace, she is full of the wisdom, knowledge, and secrets of God by the Holy Spirit, her spouse.

Our Blessed Mother does not make up part of the Godhead or is a person of the Godhead as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are. She is a creature of God like us, albeit, God’s most perfect creature, Mother of God, and Queen of heaven and earth. Neither is Mary an angel who is a pure spirit. Mary is a human being composed of spirit [or soul] and body. At the end of her pilgrimage on earth, Mary ascended soul and body into heaven [dogma of Mary’s Assumption].

 

[oppositeman]

Well, I would agree that there is much we can learn about Mary yet. However, concerning the time of Mary’s actual existence or when God created her, there is no speculation here. Mary came into existence here on earth just like any other human being through her parents and God creating her soul at her conception as he does with every other human being. Mary came into existence at her conception, her Immaculate Conception, probably about 15 years or so before she became the mother of Christ who was conceived in her womb about 2000 years ago. Christ himself, the God-Man, although he existed from all eternity in his divine nature as he is the eternal Son of God, did not exist in his human nature as a true man until he took flesh in Mary’s womb about 2000 years ago.

Our Blessed Lady is a creature of God, a human being, and a human being comes into existence at their conception in the womb of a human mother when God immediately creates and infuses the spiritual soul into the matter supplied by the parents.

The posted scripture in question is a praise of personified Wisdom which finds its fulfillment literally in the revelation and incarnation of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, whom St Paul calls “Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God.” Jesus himself says “I am the Truth.”

In the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mary is called the Seat of Wisdom because the eternal Son of God who proceeds from the Father’s intellect and who is Wisdom itself, took up His abode in the womb of Mary at the incarnation. Mary, among all God’s creatures, is more united to God and to the three persons of the Blessed Trinity than any other creature. She possesses the gifts of the Holy Spirit which include the gifts of wisdom and knowledge in a far higher degree than any other creature of God. So, I think in applying the posted scripture in question to our Blessed Mother, we are praising her wisdom, her love of God and neighbor, she can teach us the ways of God and the way of Jesus Christ, her divine Son, who is Wisdom itself and who took up his abode at his incarnation in the very womb of Mary for nine months. Our Blessed Mother, like no other creature of God, can lead us to God and Jesus Christ. As she is full of grace, she is full of the wisdom, knowledge, and secrets of God by the Holy Spirit, her spouse.

Thanks for your response - I agree with what you said One of the questions I had was why is this part of the Little Office of the BVM - and the answer is that it applies to her in a special way. I believe Mary was infused with all the human attributes and virtues of Jesus - not of His divine nature but of His human nature. But who knows maybe God has infused her with some divine wisdom - there is no way to know this - I asked Jesus not long ago -"how much more could we understand (about God in general) and He replied - “Not much”. There will come a time I believe when we will have a much fuller understanding of scripture and we will learn some very profound things.