Mary- Mediatrix, Perpetual Virginity

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ak_mike

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Recently, I was scanning the CARM website, a Christian (Protestant) Apologetics site, and I came to the spot where they discuss Catholicisim. They just go short of calling Catholicism a cult. Anyways, I went to the specific part where they discussed our devotion to Mary. The site takes issue with the fact that the Church proclaims her as Mediatrix, or mediator between us and God. They site the verse (1 Timothy 2:5) where Jesus says He is the only mediator between man and God. I know if I discuss Mary with any of my friends, this will come up, so how would I respond?

Also, discussion has frequently come up about Mary’s perpetual virginity. My Protestant friends claim that since she was married to Joseph, she would have given all of herself to him, including sexual relations as his wife, after the birth of Jesus. Therefore, she couldn’t have been a perpetual Virgin. How would I defend our Mother on this issue?

Thank You again!
ak_mike:gopray2:
 
Jesus is the sole mediator of justice. Mary is a mediator of grace. (Certainly actual grace, I’m not sure how it applies to sanctifying grace).

If you pray for me for something and the prayer is granted guess what? You are a mediator of grace.

I would say take a hiatus from these anti-Catholic sites and bone up on your apologetics.

Scott
 
I am definitely working on apologetics. I recently ordered 6 books on varying apologetics issues. So I have a lot of reading to do, but luckily it is something I enjoy learning about.

Thanks
ak_mike:amen:
 
IT CAN’T BE EXPLAINED PLAYING BIBLE BINGO(QUOTING SCRIPTURE) SO THE INDIVIDUAL HAS TO APPROACH IT WITH A WHAT IF? FRAME OF MIND. i COULD EXPLAIN IT TO SOMEONE WHO WOULD HAVE AN OPEN MIND FOR 1 HOUR BUT OTHERWISE PROTESTORS HAVE THEIR MIND’S MADE UP,DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU SAY. they have hardened their hearts to a beautiful thing that coulden’t possibly hurt them.
sad indeed. If they are open and will listen instead of shield, you have a chance.
 
Jesus is the only mediator of salvation- this does not come through Mary. She does mediate grace through her prayers, but as has been pointed out, so do we all when we pray for each other. However, I would say that, since this is not official Church teaching, but more popular spirituality, it is not necessarily worth debating.
 
Mary is also a Mediatrix of all graces because she mediates on our behalf in the same way as Moses and Abraham.

If you go to Genesis and Exodus you will find two stories about mediation. The first is Abraham who is mediating on behalf of the people of Soddom and Gomorrah. If you remember the verses at all you will find that Abraham, upon hearing that these towns were going to be destroyed asked the Lord if he would save the towns if 100 good people could be found there, etc. etc.

In Exodus you will find that God was very angry because the people had worshipped the golden calf and he was going to destroy the people He had brought out of the land of Egypt. Moses begged God to spare the people, and they were spared.

As the mother of the King of kings, Mary has a special role, because her role is just like that of the mother of king Solomon and the other mothers mentioned in the Books of Kings. If you look up the Book of Kings you will find that Bathsheba went to Solomon on behalf of one of his brothers. Solomon had responded to Bathsheba that he would always grant what she wanted. Jesus has the same relationship with Mary and He will grant her requests, just as He did during the wedding feast at Cana.

The problem that we have is that we are dealing with typology from the Old Testament, that is we are dealing with a type. If people reject the typology then there is little opportunity to make any advance with them.

Maggie
 
I’m not much of an apologeticist, but I believe some of the logic is this: We draw near to Mary because she knows her Son’s heart better than anyone else (except God the Father!). And so we draw near to her that she might help reveal Christ’s heart to us.

–Joruus
 
From the discussion about Mary being a Mediatrix, often comes a discussion about prayers beyond the ‘grave.’ My friends always tell me that these people are dead, Mary included, and therefore cannot answer or receive prayers. They also have a huge objection of prayers going to saints, but from the replies, they should understand my position. However, how would I respond to her objection to mediating after death?

ak_mike:bounce:
 
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ak_mike:
Also, discussion has frequently come up about Mary’s perpetual virginity. My Protestant friends claim that since she was married to Joseph, she would have given all of herself to him, including sexual relations as his wife, after the birth of Jesus. Therefore, she couldn’t have been a perpetual Virgin. How would I defend our Mother on this issue?
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Just thank Heaven that this was the only objection to perpetual virginity they brought up. That is the EASY one: Joseph, being told in a dream, in essence that Mary is carrying God’s child, Matthew 1:20, realized that there was something completely amazing about Mary. Ordinarily a person DIES if he looks God in the face, Exodus 33:20, whereas here Mary has God joined to her flesh, in her womb! So, Joseph distances himself from Mary, sexually, in light of her extraordinarily special relationship with almighty God, Himself. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that Moses ALSO stopped having sex with Zipporah, and sent her back to Jethro, Exodus 18:2, as Moses became more intimate with God.

The really difficult question on Perpetual Virginity is in partu virginity – which, to put it colloquially, says that Jesus somehow “beamed down” out of Mary in a mystical, incomprehensible fashion, without actually being born.

So far, I have to oppose that perspective, simply because Scripture itself seems opposed to that perspective.
 
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jp2fan:
However, I would say that, since this is not official Church teaching, but more popular spirituality, it is not necessarily worth debating.
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Depends on what sense you take mediatorship. That is, “Mary gave the Redeemer, the source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces” is a theological certainty. That is (as far as I understand Sent. certa.), because it is bound up with the dogma of the Virgin Birth, you can’t deny it without denying the dogma. (From Ott section 7.)

Scott
 
One definition of the word saint is those people who we know are not dead, who we know made it into heaven, and thus, whom we know, have eternal life with Jesus.

–Joruus
 
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ak_mike:
From the discussion about Mary being a Mediatrix, often comes a discussion about prayers beyond the ‘grave.’ My friends always tell me that these people are dead, Mary included, and therefore cannot answer or receive prayers.

ak_mike:bounce:
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  1. Ask them if they ever pray for friends, family etc.
  2. Ask them if they believe in Heaven.
  3. Ask them if Jesus is “alive” and do they pray to him.
They are just giving out the misinformation that they were taught. You mentioned that you ordered a lot of apologetics books. I am slowly going through all of the Beginning Apologets books that Catholic Answers has. They are great in educatining yourself and refuting the Protestant ignorance.

May God, our Blessed Mary and your Guardian Angel guide your search for His Truth.

God Bless you!!!
Donna
 
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ak_mike:
From the discussion about Mary being a Mediatrix, often comes a discussion about prayers beyond the ‘grave.’ My friends always tell me that these people are dead, Mary included, and therefore cannot answer or receive prayers. They also have a huge objection of prayers going to saints, but from the replies, they should understand my position. However, how would I respond to her objection to mediating after death?

ak_mike:bounce:
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Well the first thing I would have them clarify is why they think our Blessed Mother and the Saints are dead. After all, I’m sure they also believe in eternal life after bodily death, so those in Heaven are not really dead are they? After all, Scripture says as much:

Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 **He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err. **(see also the parallel texts: Matt 22:32; Lk 20:38).

Now, since those who have gone before us are not dead, but instead are a great cloud of witnesses which surround us (Heb 12:1), why wouldn’t we ask for their prayers? After all, the prayers of a righteous person avails much (Jas 5:16), and who could be more righteous or just than the Mother of God herself?
 
Oh, and another thought on mediation. Remember Scripture only says that there is one Mediator between us and the Father, Jesus himself. Nowhere does Scriptures limit the number of mediators between us and Jesus. In fact, every time one of your friends prays for someone else, he or she is acting as a mediator too.
 
Unless you are very strong in your faith I would suggest you stay away from the CARM Catholicisom boards!

They have a virilent hatred of everything Catholic and refuse to see the theological reasoning behind any of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. They certainly refuse to ackowledge Apostolic Tradition and give it no credence at all. They view Christianity in a total vacuum! If it is not explicitly stated in the Bible - it is a lie and a perversion of Scripture! They refuse to grant the Church any recognition in saving the faith that they “cherish”, although they have perverted it. Therefore, you can present no argument that they will acknowledge!

Matt Slick, who is the “owner” of the board, is anti-anybody who doesn’t believe as he believes and professes to post true Catholic teaching. In reality, he posts lies and tidbits out of context. He even says that Catholics are not Christians, that we are a cult!

You will get no where on that board. I spent a good bit of time there trying to dispell the “mis-information” and was treated with personal attacks and called a liar and, in no uncertain terms, was told that my soul was in grave danger! Can you imagine?! I finally gave up, partly because of their insistance to repeat lies and not listen to the truth or even acknowledge the possibly that there may be something to what we believe.

So, sharpen your apologetics knowledge - but not for the reason of going back to CARM to post answers to their attacks - it will make no difference! DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME!

STAY AWAY FROM CARM. THEY ARE FULL OF HATRED - FOR CATHOLICS ESPECIALLY!
 
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