Mary Question

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michael_servant

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I’ve submitted this thread twice to Ask An Apologist and in both cases it never appeared. I’m assuming they do not wish to tackle the issue. Anyway, here is the question.

A non-Catholic friend of mine asked, if Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Assumption have been confirmed by a Papal Excathedra declaration and the final sentence in that declaration states that those Catholics who do not believe this are considered “…anathema”, or dead spiritually, dosen’t that nullify our exclusive dependance for salvation on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I explained the unique position Mary holds in the life of the Church but is our salvation dependent on accepting these traditions?
 
michael servant:
I’ve submitted this thread twice to Ask An Apologist and in both cases it never appeared. I’m assuming they do not wish to tackle the issue. Anyway, here is the question.

A non-Catholic friend of mine asked, if Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Assumption have been confirmed by a Papal Excathedra declaration and the final sentence in that declaration states that those Catholics who do not believe this are considered “…anathema”, or dead spiritually, dosen’t that nullify our exclusive dependance for salvation on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I explained the unique position Mary holds in the life of the Church but is our salvation dependent on accepting these traditions?
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You are going to desire this question to be answered by those of these forums who are light-years ahead of me in knowledge of the faith, as I am sure they will come through for you. But, If I may, here is my ill-informed stab at it.

First and formost our salvation is dependent on one thing and one thing alone; the mercy of God. The Catholic church (correct me if I am wrong) NEVER states conclusively the hows or the whos of condemnation (key word, conclusively). When I came back to faith I initially was helped by listening to Christian radio. Hank Hannegraffs and Charles Swindoll. Josh McDowell and others. Although I am deeply greatful for thier wonderful insight, teachings and enthusiasm of thier love for Christ, I was always deeply disturbed by the you are either saved or you are not saved philosophy. There are some things you can inherently buy into and somethings that just don’t sit right that encourage further investigation and prayer in the search for truth. Thus I ultimately came back to my Catholic roots.

As for: John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Here is my take on this (and I welcome feedback):

Now this isn’t a direct analogy but it never-the-less is an analogy I draw when I read this passage. I equate it in certain circumstances to a New England Patriots pro-football scout overlooking a college football game. He may say to his friend in the stands, “no one comes to the Patriots except through me”. He isn’t necassarily implying that an absolute of this statement is that they develope a close relationship. It is of course desired and maybe, in many cases a true prerequisite (depends on circumstances, we hold onto the concept of invincible ignorance) but we, as parishiners, do not make that judgement call. God does.

I feel a similiar way about the beliefs regarding the Blessed Mother. We as Catholics (as per your statement) are called to believe in the Immacualte Conception and the Assumption. I trust it states it is anathema for us not to believe as you state. However I don’t think it defines your salvation. Although I do think it should warrant ones deeper investigation into just why the Church holds this dogma. Whenever I have questioned a dogma of the church and humbly put aside my views and reasearched, I was enlightened with the Truth. Batting 1000% in that area.

God Bless
 
michael servant:
I’ve submitted this thread twice to Ask An Apologist and in both cases it never appeared. I’m assuming they do not wish to tackle the issue. Anyway, here is the question.

A non-Catholic friend of mine asked, if Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Assumption have been confirmed by a Papal Excathedra declaration and the final sentence in that declaration states that those Catholics who do not believe this are considered “…anathema”, or dead spiritually, dosen’t that nullify our exclusive dependance for salvation on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I explained the unique position Mary holds in the life of the Church but is our salvation dependent on accepting these traditions?
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First off… anathema does not = Spirtually dead. It is a formal excommunication. Excommunication is NOT condemning someone to hell. It is is a separation or suspension from partaking of the Eucharist.

Second. We are to believe and obey Christ in ALL He commanded. Your non-catholic friend is holding to the Error of Sola-Fida. “All you have to do is believe in and trust Jesus and all is well.” All is not well if one doesnt obey Him and he commands us to listen to the Church. And the Church says we need to give conscience assent to all its Dogmas. Even if we dont know what they are or understand them. A simple child-like Faith that the Church is guded by the Holy Spirit and is therefore right in its official capacity as teacher.
 
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Mijoy2:
Now this isn’t a direct analogy but it never-the-less is an analogy I draw when I read this passage. I equate it in certain circumstances to a New England Patriots pro-football scout overlooking a college football game. He may say to his friend in the stands, “no one comes to the Patriots except through me”. He isn’t necassarily implying that an absolute of this statement is that they develope a close relationship. It is of course desired and maybe, in many cases a true prerequisite (depends on circumstances, we hold onto the concept of invincible ignorance) but we, as parishiners, do not make that judgement call. God does.
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Not a bad analogy. But let me expound on it. “No one comes to the Patriots except by me” That is exactly right in its scope as an analogy. And once a person is a Patriot, he must play by the rules and obey the team captain, manager and coach. If not the player is benched (anathema/excommunicated). The benched player is still on the team. He just cant play anymore until he repents.

Many for some reason many think that excommunication is the same as getting kicked off the team. It is not. The original posters non-catholic friend is under that misunderstanding also. “If I dont believe in Mary I am going to hell? But I have Faith in Jesus.” Not believing the Marian Doctines prevents one from licitly partaking of the Eucharist. Non-Catholics cant do that anyway so it really doesn apply to them. The anathemas of the Church are directed at CATHOLICS, members of the Team, not those outside the Church.
 
Thank you both. The CCC 161 says: Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent Him for our salvation in necessary for obtaining that salvation. And 169: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation”. There does seem to be some exclusivity as to the one we should be focusing on relative to the source of our salvation. However, the excathetra statement seems to broaden what we are to understand as “…the Source”. How exactly does Mary’s contribution provide us with, what the Church considers, a necessary element in the salvific equation? I understand her magnificent obedience that led to Christ being able to make the ultimate sacrifice but I don’t see how she contributed to the sacrifice of God becoming man and dying for our sins. She didn’t make that decision, He did.
 
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metal1633:
Many for some reason many think that excommunication is the same as getting kicked off the team. It is not.
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Excommunication entails the loss of membership in the Church.

There are four ways that a Catholic can lose his membership in the Church: by excommunication and by committing the mortal sins of apostasy, formal heresy, and formal schism.
 
Apostasy is “…the renunciation of one’s religion”. Does one’s inability to believe come under that definition?
 
michael servant:
I understand her magnificent obedience that led to Christ being able to make the ultimate sacrifice but I don’t see how she contributed to the sacrifice of God becoming man and dying for our sins. She didn’t make that decision, He did.
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God made the decision to choose her to be His mother. But when the angel Gabriel announced this to Mary, remarkably, He waited for her decision. She replied “Let it be done to me according to your word,” allowing God’s plan of salvation to continue. Her “Yes” to God was an integral part of his plan, reversing the “No” of the first Eve.

JimG
 
JimG beat me to the punch; this is exactly the point I was going to raise. Yes, God chose Mary to be the human vessel for bringing Christ into the world, but technically, she could have refused the honor if she wanted to. She could have said “No.” Looking at it this way I believe clarifies her unique position vis-a-vis our salvation: Christ died for us on the cross, but the reason Christ was able to do this in the first place is because of Mary’s “Yes” to God. That’s why she is so important; as JimG says, this was the decisive moment of obedience which counterbalanced the disobedience of our first parents, thus leading to a reversal of the ill effects stemming therefrom(namely, death and eternal separation from God).
 
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