Mary, The Annunciation, and Problems with The Angelus

[Deulofeu]

When Gabriel visited Mary to announce God’s intentions to her, did she know she was speaking with an angel? The Biblical account in Luke says that Gabriel spoke to her, but it doesn’t necessarily reveal that Mary knew with whom she was speaking.

I ask this because if she knew she was speaking to an angel, then wouldn’t it be, for all intents and purposes, impossible for her to say no to God in that situation? I mean, if you were to encounter an angel, and you knew it was definitely an angel you were dealing with, would you even bother asking a question such as, “How am I supposed to have a child when I’m a virgin?” The angel could basically say anything to you and you’d probably just say, “Ok, sounds good,” right? I don’t mean to be disrespectful, so I’m trying to get a different perspective on the issue, because I’m sure this same line of thought has occurred to others before. Where I stand now, though, I understand the reverence paid to Mary for her role as the mother of God, her being the Queen of Heaven, all of that I’m on board with. But The Angelus I don’t quite get. This sounds ridiculously arrogant, and so I’m asking to understand, but if a literal angel came down to heaven to speak to Mary and ask, “Hey, is it ok with you if God does this,” is it really a shocker that she, or anyone else, would say, “Uh, sure. No problem?”

On the other hand, if she wasn’t sure who or what she was dealing with, and she was answering Gabriel along the lines of, “Wouldn’t it be great if that were the case,” then I can understand a prayer in reverence to the faith required to take someone seriously who approached you telling you that you were to give birth to God’s incarnation. I can also understand The Angelus’ importance from the perspective of remembering the episode as a whole without specifically focusing on Mary’s role in it.

I’ve read questions on Catholic Answers that somewhat overlap with this point, but none that directly pose the question as I have here. Forgive me, of course, if I’ve overlooked an answer previously given.

 

[Rutherford2]

“Hey, is it ok with you if God does this,”

If I knew it was God, it would be a delightful YES! YOUR WISH IS MY COMMAND!

 

[Reuben_J]

It was probably like condensing an hour meeting into a few sentences, so take your pick. Perhaps that is one of the problems with understanding the Bible.

 

[AngelusDomini]

This is where the Immaculate Conception comes in. Mary, being without sin, was able to answer God with her ‘fiat’ as she had no selfish motives or desires, she still had free will though.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There’s plenty of people in the Bible who didn’t react to God’s messenger with a perfect “Be it done unto me according to thy word”.

Off the top of my head:
Jonah actually tried to run away from God.
Sarah laughed in disbelief.
Zachariah doubted and asked for a sign to prove the truth of the message.

The last two involved seemingly impossible pregnancies.

Mary could have had any of the above reactions. She didn’t.

On the broader question of doing what God wants, the entire Bible is full of God telling the Jewish people, or even kings like Saul, David and Solomon, what he wants them to do, and they don’t express any doubt that it’s God telling them, and yet they go do something different.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I can guarantee that if an angel appears in my bedroom one night asking me to do something for God, I’m going to have a LOT of questions. I’d like to think I’ll jump on board and say yes, but I’m a pretty faulty human being.

 

[HeDa]

The angel didn’t greet Mary with the traditional greeting “Do not be afraid.” but with saying to her “Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.” (You who have been graced to the fullest!) Mary was perplexed as she was familiar with the Law and the Profets. The “Do not be afraid.” comes later. Mary is asking “How can this be?”. She knows of the intimacy between a husband and a wife and now this child is going to be called the “Son of the most High” etc? No wonder she is perplexed. Zachariah questions the angel with giving reasons why he and Elisabeth can’t have a child and doubts. Mary believes.

Also remember that the persons in Scripture don’t have the full picture and the complete story. They are living it and we are reading some 2000 years later with a totally different perspective.

 

[Genesis315]

Not to mention every time each one of us has broken a Commandment…

 

[Francis]

When Gabriel visited Mary to announce God’s intentions to her, did she know she was speaking with an angel? The Biblical account in Luke says that Gabriel spoke to her, but it doesn’t necessarily reveal that Mary knew with whom she was speaking.

The heavenly Father has sent the Archangel Gabriel,as she was chosen before the foundation’s of the world, she would be the Mother of God ,as he made known to her and she knew he’s an angle by the greeting, as she was endowed with full of grace and wisdom.

I mean, if you were to encounter an angel, and you knew it was definitely an angel you were dealing with, would you even bother asking a question such as, “How am I supposed to have a child when I’m a virgin?” The angel could basically say anything to you and you’d probably just say, “Ok, sounds good,” right? I don’t mean to be disrespectful, so I’m trying to get a different perspective on the issue, because I’m sure this same line of thought has occurred to others before.

wrong, It was Archangel Gabriel, Your talking about, and not any ordinary Angle,you don’t have a chance here, otherwise he’ll shut your mouth like he did to Zechariah as in (Luke 1:19 The angel replied, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. 20 But now, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time, you will become mute, unable to speak, until the day these things occur.”)

I can also understand The Angelus’ importance from the perspective of remembering the episode as a whole without specifically focusing on Mary’s role in it.

If there is no Mary’s role in it,Then there is no Jesus role in it either that means no salvation. it was (her) Mary’s own free will and she said yes,to the will of God, her whole life, with full consent knowing fully, what would be the consequence, even the sufferings she, have to go thorough, all at the same time.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Bear has put it quite well.

I think also, even if you know it is God or an angel or whatever, it’s human to try to use our reason to understand.

The fact that Mary said “how could this be” shows her humanity.

 

[mVitus]

The fact that Mary said “how could this be” shows her humanity.

Not to mention that she most likely already vowed celibacy by that time. So even though betrothed to Joseph, it’s not hard to imagine why she’d have a question in regards to having a baby without having sex.

 

[Carmel]

When Gabriel visited Mary to announce God’s intentions to her, did she know she was speaking with an angel? The Biblical account in Luke says that Gabriel spoke to her, but it doesn’t necessarily reveal that Mary knew with whom she was speaking.

Angels were (are ) incredible beings, especially archangels. When Gabriel appeared Mary would have immediately understood who he was.

I understand the reverence paid to Mary for her role as the mother of God, her being the Queen of Heaven, all of that I’m on board with. But The Angelus I don’t quite get. This sounds ridiculously arrogant, and so I’m asking to understand, but if a literal angel came down to heaven to speak to Mary

In the older traditional Bible Gabriel says " Hail, Full of Grace the Lord is with thee "
Full of grace is a reference to Mary’s Immaculate Conception and her unique status as being without sin

you were to give birth to God’s incarnation. I can also understand The Angelus’ importance from the perspective of remembering the episode as a whole without specifically focusing on Mary’s role in it.

I don’t know how you could meditate on the Annunciation and ignore Mary. It would be like celebrating the birth of a baby, but ignoring the baby.

 

[Francis]

where is the OP ,or a troll ?

 

[JM3]

did she know she was speaking with an angel?

Yes, she did know. Thus, she tested the spirit with her question “How will this be, since I will not have sexual relations with a man?” An angel from God would honor her vow, while a demonic one would tell her to break her vow.

 

[Deulofeu]

The OP lives in Japan and so is awake at different times than the majority of posters here, I’d imagine. He also has two children under the age of 3, making his schedule rather busy.

 

[Deulofeu]

Response 1/2:
To clear up some confusion regarding my inquiry, I’m not really concerned with Mary asking Gabriel questions.

The situation: We have the Angelus as a prayer that remembers Mary’s choice to obey God’s will. This obedience is given a profound importance.

My assumptions:
Mary, a young Jewish woman, has heard of God, believes in Him, and has heard about angels and doesn’t doubt their existence.

My problem:
If you believe in God, and angels, and the archangel Gabriel comes to you and tells you what God wishes of you, how could you possibly say anything other than yes? Does it require a great amount of virtue to assent from a direct request from God delivered unequivocally from an angel? Why is this episode worthy of admiration if the focus is on Mary’s decision? I can understand revering the episode and Mary because God chose her for the most important role in human existence. But if the focus is on what Mary decided, why is this decision worthy of special praise, because, I argue, anyone in her situation, given the assumptions I have made, would make the same choice.

Explanations thus far and why they seem unsatisfactory:

1. Mary was born without sin and able to give God a perfect answer.

Response: Mary was selected by God to be born for that role, no? So she should be held in the highest esteem for the role for which she was selected, not any action of her own.

1. Others in the Bible didn’t react to God’s requests in the same way.

Response: Sarah and Zachariah had doubts as to the manner in which God would fulfill promises, which has nothing to do with whether or not they assented to God’s will. Neither of them was actually asked for consent. Rather, they were both told what would happen, and both were rebuked for their doubts.

Saul was spoken to by Samuel, David to Nathan. The Lord appears to Solomon in a dream. None of these kings encountered an angel, and none was asked for consent. To a broader point, even taking their sins against God as examples of rejecting God’s will, albeit I argue the circumstances are different from Mary’s, we don’t hold prayers for Biblical figures who did do God’s will besides Mary. Do we recite a special prayer for Abraham three times a day? How about Job? They were presented with awful circumstances and didn’t turn away from God. Mary was presented with a joyful message. Which decision would be more difficult to make - kill your own son / watch your family die and be afflicted with illness without cursing God, or give birth to the incarnate God? Job didn’t even have the comfort of any kind of divine message to console him. He was regarded as upright and even perfect, fearful in conduct towards God and out of nowhere his entire life is ruined.

The Book of Jonah, if I’m not mistaken, is read as a fictional narrative, and not regarded as a work of the historical genre. In fact, it is, according to my Christian Community Bible (Catholic Pastoral Edition), interpreted as somewhat of a parody of militant Jews from that time. So I can’t take Jonah as an example of an alternate reaction to God’s directly speaking to someone.

 

[Deulofeu]

Response 2/2:

1. People disobey God’s will all the time by sinning and breaking commandments.

Response: It seems something qualitatively different when you discuss rules meant to govern the entire, fallen human race - rules that, because of our fallen nature, are understood to be broken, thus requiring merciful forgiveness versus specific commandments, delivered by angels, given to specific individuals to take specific actions. If I found myself suddenly face-to-face with an angel, and it told me, “Next Tuesday, the Lord wants you to eat pasta for breakfast,” I might find the order odd, but it would be much easier for me to perfectly comply with the request for that Tuesday morning rather than something like “Love thy neighbor,” which is a lifelong struggle with the fundamentally selfish character I possess.

1. The original poster is a troll.

Response: I named my first child Maria after the Holy Mother, so I’m not a troll. I take this line of questioning and Mariology with grave sincerity. I hope by my responses to the objections above it will show that I’ve considered this question relatively deeply.

In summary:
If we look at The Annunciation and Mary’s conduct in response to it, I don’t see why we should be more reverential towards it than we are towards Abraham, Job, or any other number of Biblical figures who had more difficult commands to fulfill. The gravity of her “decision” was greater, but that is because the role God selected for her was greater, not due to superior virtue on Mary’s part. This is further reinforced by the fact that her message was delivered personally by an archangel, whereas someone like Job had to endure greater hardship without any explanation as to what was happening or why. Comparing the two situations, I’m reminded of John 20:29, “You believe because you see me, don’t you? Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.”

Apologies for any perceived irreverence. That is not my intention. I would ask this question during a Catholic Live broadcast, but I live in Japan and the timing is not possible.

 

[Francis]

This obedience is given a profound importance.

why?yes, because it matter, for our salvation, she had the choice or other wise, we would be robots,Being chosen by God she did the will of god as nobody else has done it, as perfectly as she did it,Being the Mother of God, God gave Hope of Mother Mary and promised salvation thorough Jesus and restoration of Grace in Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy (satan’s children =wicked people, anti-Christ ) seed and her (Mary) seed (Jesus and Christians): she shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul . John 9:31 says we know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace, found favor with God Lk 1:42 – Elizabeth: “most blessed among women” Lk 1:48 – Mary: “all generations will call me blessed” Mother of God Lk 1:43 – Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God. The Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth and testifying about Mother Mary.

**[969] "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

**[970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Both Eve and Mary were approached by an angel (with Eve, a fallen angel lucifer ); doubt crept into Eve’s heart, whereas Mary’s faith was steadfast, Pure in fullness (see Luke 1:45). Eve participated in the downfall of the first Adam, just as Mary participates in the victory of her Son, the New Adam (see Luke 2:34-35). In the words of the early Fathers, “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s faith.” and because she in union with Jesus in spirit 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

 

[Francis]

People disobey God’s will all the time by sinning and breaking commandments.

**[484] The Annunciation to Mary inaugurates “the fullness of time”,119 the time of the fulfillment of God’s promises and preparations. Mary was invited to conceive him in whom the “whole fullness of deity” would dwell “bodily”.120The divine response to her question, “How can this be, since I know not man?”, was given by the power of the Spirit: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you."121

**[485] The mission of the Holy Spirit is always conjoined and ordered to that of the Son.122 The Holy Spirit, “the Lord, the giver of Life”, is sent to sanctify the womb of the Virgin Mary and divinely fecundate it, causing her to conceive the eternal Son of the Father in a humanity drawn from her own.

**[486] The Father’s only Son, conceived as man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, is “Christ”, that is to say, anointed by the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of his human existence, though the manifestation of this fact takes place only progressively: to the shepherds, to the magi, to John the Baptist, to the disciples.123 Thus the whole life of Jesus Christ will make manifest "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power."124

Mary’s predestination

488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127
**[489] Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women prepared for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living.128 By virtue of this promise, Sarah conceives a son in spite of her old age.129 Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 Mary "stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established."131

509 Mary is truly “Mother of God” since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm . 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” ( Lk 1:38).

 

[Francis]

where is the OP ,or a troll ?

The OP lives in Japan and so is awake at different times than the majority of posters here, I’d imagine. He also has two children under the age of 3, making his schedule rather busy.

1. The original poster is a troll.

Response: I named my first child Maria after the Holy Mother, so I’m not a troll. I take this line of questioning and Mariology with grave sincerity. I hope by my responses to the objections above it will show that I’ve considered this question relatively deeply.

My sincere Apologies,since your not answering i assumed so, There some,who post and disappear,so once again kindly forgive in Jesus Name, God Bless. your welcome to ask questions