Mary & the Saints: Omniscient & Omnipresent?

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Intercessor55

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Talking to Mary and the communion of the Saints were big hurdles for me. I have come to believe that they hear our requests, but as a former protestant pastor, I don’t understand how they can possess attributes normally ascribed to God alone, i.e., that He can be everywhere at once, hearing all of our prayers, spoken and unspoken. Help! Please put on your apologetics/theology thinking caps.

Intercessor 55
 
I suspect that what God knows, the Saints in heaven know also - but only because of Gods power & attributes and not independently of Him.
 
One of the more depressing aspects of much of Protestantism is the persistent attempts to reduce God. I’m reminded of Jesus’ words, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Exactly. Being able to hear prayers which are (in the ultimate sense) directed to God alone, through the saints, in His heaven, should not be surprising. If the souls ‘experience’ heaven (and they must, because heaven is being with God 'in full, and not ‘seeing through a glass darkly’), why would they not be able to experience all of heaven? Weren’t we told by St. John that we ‘will be like Him’ (Christ)? “Like” doesn’t mean that we would suddenly become equal to God, but it does imply that we would ‘share’ in God’s vision (and hearing as well). The saints “hear” us because God in His heaven hears us.

BTW, omniscient means knowing everything. Even if the saints ‘hear’ a prayer of ours, that does not make them ‘omniscient’; they don’t for example know what we will say before we say it!! You and I can hear a prayer from another person if he speaks or writes it, but we didn’t know what he was going to say before he said it. . .God does.

Also, how are the saints ‘everywhere at once’ simply by hearing a prayer? They are ‘in heaven’, not running around the earth trying to listen in. So they aren’t ‘omnipresent’ like God either.

God bless.
 
To paraphrase St. Irenaeus, Grace makes the Saints fully alive, the life of Man is the vision of God.

In receiving the gift of God’s life, they become “divinized” and participate in the very life of the Trinity. Grace empowers them to see the **Infinite **in the face.

Listening to a **finite **amount of intercessory requests in a **finite **amount of time-- even zillions and zillions of them-- is an ability that remains incurably finite.

If Grace quickens the Saints to gaze with love at the Infinite, how much more can Grace empower the Saints to do the finite, like intercessory prayer?
 
Some of your responses made sense to me, but I am beginning to think it is one of those mysteries I hear Catholics talking about- a mystery we will not grasp in this life. When I received a rosary in the mail with
instructions for praying it, I went through each bead,
becoming very aware of a loving, peaceful, gracious presence. I suddenly loved her and felt loved in return, whereas a month ago, I would have felt dumb just holding a rosary. Perhaps she was in a thousand other places
in the world at the same time doing the same thing, e.g., making her presence known to earnest seekers. That is something I would have said only the Holy Spirit could do. It leaves me bewildered. Nevertheless, I will press on, trusting God to open my eyes to as much truth as I am able to hold. Thank you for laying one stepping stone on the path I’m
finding on the way to truth.

Intercessor 55
 
Talking to Mary and the communion of the Saints were big hurdles for me. I have come to believe that they hear our requests, but as a former protestant pastor, I don’t understand how they can possess attributes normally ascribed to God alone, i.e., that He can be everywhere at once, hearing all of our prayers, spoken and unspoken. Help! Please put on your apologetics/theology thinking caps.

Intercessor 55
Mary and the Saints, like the angels and God live outside time. They can comprehend what we here on earth are limited to our own scenes.

God is also the God of the living, and not the dead. In the Book of Revelations, we have the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.

Consider these verses from the Bible:

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
 
Talking to Mary and the communion of the Saints were big hurdles for me. I have come to believe that they hear our requests, but as a former protestant pastor, I don’t understand how they can possess attributes normally ascribed to God alone, i.e., that He can be everywhere at once, hearing all of our prayers, spoken and unspoken. Help! Please put on your apologetics/theology thinking caps.

Intercessor 55
Hearing a finite number of humans praying a finite number of prayers, in a finite space (our Universe), would, by definition, be a finite action.

There are a large number of prayers, to be certain, but simply being ‘large’ does not mean ‘infinite’.

Omiscience trancendes any finite action. And the abilty to perform a finite action does not require omnipotence.

For example, I do network engineering for a living. I could design a web server farm that could handle FAR more information from across the globe, that the simple prayers of humanity. That action would certainly seem “God like” to Calvin and Luther, but seems commonplace to us. Itwould certainly not require deification of the computers, but rather a fuller understanding. That is the type of knowledge we will have in Heave “to know as well as we are known”.

Such knowlege will be far and away above what we have now, but it will still be finite.

It isn’t so much of think of the saints as having too much power, you seem to be underestimating how large God’s Power truely is and limiting it to what are simply finite things.
 
I’m not a superb authority on Catholicism, so I’m open to correction, but from my Catholic perspective, I see Mary & the Saints as being outside of time in the same way as the angels are. I don’t think this is just a personal view - I must have got it from somewhere.

And that’s why Satan cannot revoke his act of disobedience against God - it is outside of time. And that’s how he too is omnipresent and able to tempt billions of people simultaneously. Since when we die, our existence is now outside of time, and that’s why we either end up in heaven or hell for all eternity.

So that’s how Mary & the Saints can be omnipresent from my perspective.

Regarding omniscience… Well, they’re not omniscient. They don’t know everything. They know our prayers.

I wonder if a Protestant could in good conscience say directly to God, “God, help me in this matter. And may the Saints in heaven pray for me too.” If it is possible, from a Protestant perspective, do you reckon God could at least let the Saints know of your request?

In any case, the Saints know our prayers because God lets them. Catholics could ask God to let the Saints know of their prayers, but we believe in the Communion of Saints, and it is assumed that He does.

I’m not an expert, but I hope I helped.
 
Talking to Mary and the communion of the Saints were big hurdles for me. I have come to believe that they hear our requests, but as a former protestant pastor, I don’t understand how they can possess attributes normally ascribed to God alone, i.e., that He can be everywhere at once, hearing all of our prayers, spoken and unspoken. Help! Please put on your apologetics/theology thinking caps.

Intercessor 55
Since the moment of the departure of her soul from earth, Mary has been in possession of the beatific vision in the kingdom of heaven. Since the intensity and extent of this act of intelligence are in proportion to the measure of sanctity with which a soul leaves this world, and the holiness of Mary was so great that, in the words of Pope Pius IX, “under God, no greater can be conceived,” Our Lady beholds the majesty and the beauty of the Triune God more clearly and more profoundly than all other creatures, both angels and men, being surpassed only by her divine Son.

In the light of the beatific vision the soul beholds also many created objects, including those happenings on earth which have a special interest for this particular soul. Thus, a saint who has established a religious order during his period on earth will behold in the vision of God the successes and failures of his institute, and will thus be enabled to direct his prayers for his spiritual children in a definite form to the Almighty. Applying this norm for Our Lady, we conclude that her knowledge in the beatific vision of earthly events surpasses by far that of any other blessed soul (save the soul of Christ) because, as Coredemptrix and Dispenser of all grace and the spiritual Mother of all mankind, she has an interest in every human being and in all the events that take place or will take place on earth. The predictions of the Blessed Virgin in the apparitions at Fatima confirm this opinion as to the extent of her knowledge of the fututre.

However, it would not necessarily follow from this fact that Mary knows the ultimate fate of every human being - who will be saved, who will be lost. On this question we can only have conjectural knowledge. Yet, the great theologian Suarez did not hesitate to express the opinion that Mary’s perception of created objects in the beatific vision embraces all things actual - past, present, future - except those that are proper to her Son. Such extensive knowledge might include the discernment of the saved and the lost, past, present, future.

To some it might seem unsuitable to inquire in so detailed a fashion about the nature and extent of Mary’s knowledge, particularly since we have so little explicit information on this point in the Bible. But it must not be forgotten that in the tradition of the Church there are definite indications that the woman whom God chose to be the Mother of His Son was the recipient of many extraordinary privileges, and these would naturally include great perfection of the intellect, the noblest human faculty. And so, it is not unprofitable to seek some definite ideas on Mary’s knowledge, since a study of this kind helps us to understand the sublime dignity of the Mother of God, and inspires us to be more ready to seek through her intercession the wisdom and the understanding that we need in the journey of life.
 
And that’s why Satan cannot revoke his act of disobedience against God - it is outside of time. And that’s how he too is omnipresent and able to tempt billions of people simultaneously. Since when we die, our existence is now outside of time, and that’s why we either end up in heaven or hell for all eternity.
But that makes no since. Afterall Satan’s rebellion happened outside of time.

Are you saying it’s possible to go to hell after being in heaven?
 
Cyber,

Possible to go to hell after being in heaven? No, I’m not saying that. I think I understand what you mean, though - because I was unclear it seems that since Satan could have chosen to rebel outside of time, he can unchoose it. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have understood that angels were given free will, though, and it looks like they were tested at some point and some of them failed - they chose to rebel against God. We are being tested now, and the state of our soul - whether it is in a state of friendship or enmity with God - when it passes into eternity becomes incapable of change, because for change to occur, time is required. So once the test is over, the state of our soul cannot change. By no means am I saying that the angels were tested in the same way as we are here on Earth. All I’m saying is that it involved them making a choice with eternal consequences.

I’m no theologian and I’m not quoting from an authoritative source on this matter, so 1 Thess 5:21 is especially important. I will gladly accept correction. Still, I thought I’d share.
 
But that makes no since. Afterall Satan’s rebellion happened outside of time.

Are you saying it’s possible to go to hell after being in heaven?
No. The angels were given their choice BEFORE they entered Heaven.

Unlike us, Angels do not aquire knowledge. They are given, at their creation, all the knowledge they will need for their service.

After being given that knowledge, each individual angel made a choice that was irrevokable, to serve or reject God.

(Interesting side note. Jewish tradition states that Lucifers rejection was because it was made know that angels would serve not only God, but humans as well. THAT is what he rejected. He knew He could not be Lord of All, but he wanted dominion over man. And God gave him his wish. All men who choose to be under Lucifers dominion, will be.)
 
The saints don’t need to be omniscient or omnipresent to hear any finite number of prayers. And notice in Rev.5 how the writer was able to hear every creature in heaven, on the earth, under the earth and in the sea. That’s a lot more than just hearing those asking you for prayers, and the writer wasn’t even a perfected saint in heaven yet!
 
Have you noticed Hebrews 12:1? And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Now I have never seen the “witnesses” (Fans) of any race that just sat stoically by, have you? How much more so would the saints in heaven intercede for us in our own races knowing of the eternal consequences of it?

That awareness is by God’s power, not the saint’s, since all serve Him.
 
Talking to Mary and the communion of the Saints were big hurdles for me. I have come to believe that they hear our requests, but as a former protestant pastor, I don’t understand how they can possess attributes normally ascribed to God alone, i.e., that He can be everywhere at once, hearing all of our prayers, spoken and unspoken. Help! Please put on your apologetics/theology thinking caps.

Intercessor 55
Can they hear us? St. John the Apostle was given a vision of heaven on Sunday on Patmos. He wrote about that vision in the book of Revelation. Although mere human, he said that “*I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea.” *(Rev 5:13). How could this be possible? It seems that nothing is impossible given that God is omnipotent. Even a mere human can be given powers in heaven beyond the natural powers he has on earth.

Thus, I have no Scriptural reason to claim that Mary cannot also hear every creature in heaven and on earth, just as John could one Sunday on Patmos when he was “caught up in the Spirit.” That didn’t necessitate that St. John was Divine, nor should one conclude that Mary or any saint is Divine because of that ability.

When Christ is the vine between the branches, then we don’t need Divine powers to have communion with all God’s holy ones. Christ takes care of that for us. 👍
 
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